CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

Our transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human editors. We do our best to achieve accuracy, but they may contain errors. If it is an option for you, we strongly encourage you to listen to the podcast audio, which includes additional emotion and emphasis not conveyed through transcription. 

[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Every family has a story. For some of us, our family of origin is a solid foundation that feeds our confidence and helps us navigate life’s challenges. For others, it’s a source of pain, hurt, and conflict that can feel like a lifelong burden. Licensed therapist and bestselling relationship expert Nedra Glover Tawwab is an expert in helping individuals reclaim their voice and set healthy boundaries. In her latest book, Drama Free, she offers clear advice for identifying dysfunctional family patterns and choosing the best path to breaking the cycle and moving forward. 

In this episode, Nedra is joined by writer, author, and licensed mental health professional Minaa B. in a conversation about understanding and moving past family struggles—and living your life, your way. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on May 23rd, 2023. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs just like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 

Minaa B: Hi, Nedra.  

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Hi Minaa, how are you? 

Minaa: I'm well, how are you? 

Nedra: I am well, thank you for asking.  

Minaa: Of course, well I am so excited to have this conversation with you and I know the audience is really eager to learn more about your work. And I just want to go ahead and jump right in if we can, and so, in your book Drama Free, one of the things I loved is how you broke down your work into three different parts so unlearning dysfunction, healing, and growth. And the unlearning dysfunction piece really stood out to me because I often think about the concept of learning and unlearning. And also, as a therapist, I know you can relate to the concept of someone saying to you, but this is how I was raised, Nedra. This is all I've known my whole life.  

And when I think of that thing, it also makes me think of how we tie that back to our culture. So not only do we see it as I was raised like this in my family, but even culturally, we all do the same thing. And so, I'm curious to hear from you what are some examples of traditions or cultural practices that you've seen people engage in that they disguise it as something that's normal, when really it is dysfunctional and healthy, but we're disguising it as culture and tradition.  

Nedra: I think multi-generations of dysfunction, I've seen a lot of families where people have issues with their parents and their parents had issues with their parents and so on and so forth. And it just goes on and on and on. And it's the norm, it's like you know my mom and my grandmother don't talk or this part like estrangement, sometimes can be a dysfunction with it is a way of communication throughout your family.  

Also, I would say that not allowing people to share any emotions or holding space for people during difficult times and some families, there is no conversation about how you feel or what's happening, everything could be made into a joke or, you know, it could be dismissed I've even seen that sometimes I think in the book I use an example of, you know, me witnessing a dismissal of feelings at a funeral, of all places, right where someone was, you know, crying and, you know, they were, they were told man up, and this is at a funeral.  

So, you know, I think that dysfunction is not just like substance abuse or physical abuse, it's also emotional neglect, it is also codependency, it is also not honoring boundaries, and it can also be not apologizing when you've done something wrong to someone. So, there is a variety of things that we can perpetually do in families that are harmful to many individuals.  

Speaking of not apologizing. I was speaking with someone earlier today and they were saying this person never apologizes to anyone about anything and I'm like, oh, what a horrible reputation to have. You are a person who doesn't apologize for anything. And whatever you do something you expect this automatic forgiveness you want to step back into the role with the person without conversation, without change, and without ownership. Wow.  

Minaa: Wow, indeed. Wow. And I you know you're bringing up something that I would love to hear your perspective on because when we are talking about this concept of dysfunction, right. I think it can be easy to look around and see the dysfunction, but not look within and recognize the ways you participate in the dysfunction, and you uphold the dysfunction.  

And so, I'm curious to know like how can people start to become more self-aware about the fact that maybe you are the problem in the family. Maybe you are the dysfunctional family member maybe that chapter was actually about you and you're reading it and you're like oh this could be applied to my mother but then it's like also, well how about you do some introspection here and see well maybe you also have some qualities and traits here how do we get people to open their eyes to see the role that they are also playing in this concept. 

Nedra: They have to have a desire to do that. Right, like there are some people who really own the victim space, and no matter how much they're repeating the same thing in relationships they feel as if they're, they've been wrong. There are some people who refuse to see themselves because it's easier, and it's softer in their spirit to say it’s this other person but I often think if you have the same issue with multiple people, it's got to be you. It's impossible that it's everybody else so if you want to notice, gosh, could it be me, one significant indicator of that is seeing the same problems, over and over. If you say, everybody I know is so selfish. How you, I mean family members, friends like, how are you picking, attracting, gravitating towards this type of personality trait. Maybe it's not something that you want but it's certainly something that you've welcomed. So even that is about you. If every relationship ends in in this explosive way, then there is something to be said about how you in relationships, and perhaps, you know, we are contributing to some things and it is really important for us to think about like, what is my role in this. How did I contribute to this, even when it is someone else's fault. And I think about like if you're setting a boundary with someone and when you set it and they get really mad about it it's like you know when they're upset. You've been letting them do this for eight years. So, even this is on you. [laughs] [Minaa: It’s true.] You don't need to let anybody else get along with some get away with something for eight years. Of course they would be mad, of course I made them feel like this is okay and now today on the eighth year, 14th day of our relationship, I am saying hey, I don't like this thing, and they are shocked. Even that is on me so there's a lot of ownership, and some of the things that we're experiencing in relationships I deeply believe, and some people, they just don't get it. But, but there is. There is also some cause and effect that we don't tend to pay attention to.  

Minaa: You know, it makes me think about the concept of community care which is what my work is deeply rooted in. And I love how you weave that in because ownership plays a big role in cultivating connection. Who is going to want to be in relationship with you if you are the person who can never apologize. If you are the person who everyone is to blame, but I'm perfect. I have no flaws, there is nothing wrong with me. And I think it's what you're speaking to is just so important when we think about the concept of collective care, even around what you're just describing and boundaries for eight years I've been this way. Every time a person gives me pushback, I'm cutting them off. I'm ending this relationship. And it's like what happened to having compassion as well as compromise and flexibility in our relationships, especially with our family, when we are trying to be that person to bring something new into a pattern that has existed like you talked about it existed with my mom, it existed with grandma, it existed with her. So now I want to do something different but the moment I get this slight pushback that leads to a feeling of discomfort everybody's getting pushed out.  

And so can you talk to us about that cut off culture. Right, because if we, especially with us living in a loneliness pandemic and thinking about what it means to be in community, accountability and restorative justice is a part of that. And I think sometimes when we think of our family, we tend to be very swift to remove ourselves and push those people away without figuring out how can I be more compassionate, how can I be more flexible, how can I realize maybe this person no is a complete sentence, but with this person because I want a genuine connection with you, maybe I'll offer you a courtesy and explain more, but I think sometimes people struggle with having that nuance. And so can you talk about that like just having more nuance in our relationships and learning to engage in that framework of accountability and being able to be in a space where we allow people to evolve, I know you talk about that so much, versus being so quick to cut them off. 

Nedra: I do believe we're seeing, not necessarily more cut offs, but it's more on social media is more in the press people are more vocal about it. I wonder if estrangements have actually risen, or if we're just more aware of escarpments. I spoke with Dr. Carl Palomar and he mentioned in his research that people leave relationships because of anxiety. That is number one reason they're anxious about talking to this person being around them communicating with them in any way they've had several situations with them, and that is what's leading to estrangements it’s not anger it’s not being hurt it’s not being hurt by somebody taking something and not returning it. It is really just, I've tried, and I am now to the point where I'm so uncomfortable around you because I've tried and I just can't try anymore I'm tired of you being yourself without apology, or being yourself and being offensive, being yourself and harming other people.  

Im those instances, I don't think we're seeing an increase in estrangements and cut offs What we may be seeing an increase in is people not wanting to have uncomfortable conversations and ending relationships right so I think there may be an increase in ghosts. I think there is a bit of an increase in abruptly ending a relationship without talking to people, and I can get that, you know, as a, as a, from a therapeutic perspective, and from a personal perspective. There are some people who can make you feel so uncomfortable talking to them, and it comes out in how they respond to other things, the past situations you've had with them, the conversations they say about how other people talk to them about stuff, so we can get a sense of, oh, you can't say this to this person like if I say this, they will cuss me out and stalk me for two years because that's what they did to this other person. Do I want to be that? That happens it’s really unfortunate.  

And then there are some times where we are just really ready to leave a relationship. We don't want to have to explain it we don't want to comfort the other person. We don't want you to try to get back in a relationship we are so sure of it, you know, because you wear blue shirts, I'm out of here. And there's nothing you can do to keep me because I just don't want to be around a person with blue shirts or whatever it is right. And that is tough. That is really tough, and I think we are dealing with more people suffering the grief of relationships not ending on their term. And for that I would say, there has to be some space for grieving. We have to allow people to go. We have to allow people to want to leave. We have to allow people to not always like us. I don't know about you, but you know feeling unliked by someone is a really tough feeling especially when you like them. 

Minaa: Yeah.  

Nedra: And so, there is there is some difficulty in someone cutting you off or ending a relationship because of your behavior. Because guess what, there are other people in your life who still have a relationship with you, even though you exhibit that behavior. You know I've heard parents say, I, I wouldn't talk to this person if they weren't my child. But I don’t see why they, you know, their brother won’t want talk to them. It’s like what, so you wouldn't talk to this person if it wasn't your child. You know, so we have to think about that sometimes. Not everyone is a nice person. Not everyone is welcoming, inviting some of us don't know how to be good friends some of us don't know how to be good sisters and brothers or parents. We just don't have the skills.  

And when that is the case, people are now in some cases brave enough to step up and say, I don't want this relationship, I don’t want to argue with you. Every time I see you. You say that is you. I'm scared of confrontation and to me this is, you know, there is this this accommodating and dancing we have to do with another person we're in a relationship and sometimes when the other person is not willing. It can end the relationship. I think you can be authentic, and you can be yourself, but there are some parts of you that you need to be 70% of and some parts that can be 100, it depends on the person, place, the setting. If you find yourself having to go too low, you know, maybe you don't need to speak with this person as frequently.  

I'm an advocate of maybe speak not speaking to people as frequently. I know I'm, I support a cut off, I don't want to. I support a cut off I support estrangement. I also support us, not trying to force closeness in our relationships. You can have a relationship with a person and talk to them once a month. Quarterly. Every Christmas. That's a relationship. That's our norm. [Minaa: It is.] I don’t need to speak to you every day five times a week for us to have a relationship. No. We can have a relationship as needed and all of that is based off of how we connect to each other how we respect each other, what our boundaries look like. If I'm anxious, when I see you are you willing to hear that and hold space for that. Can we accommodate each other's needs. There's a lot, there's a lot in there that we have to think about in terms of frequency, what I will hear from most people is we want the frequency to be regular, and if it can’t be regular, we don’t want it at all. If I can’t have an absolutely healthy relationship with so and so, be talking to them every day then- you might be talking to them too much! [Minaa laughs] There are some people, you can talk to them too much, and that too much is when you start to get them annoyed. But you’ll find if you talk to them once a month, the conversation is very different.  

So, when you want to be in relationship with someone, it’s really this figuring out how the relationship could work, what sort of things we can talk about, what sort of things we don’t need to talk about, what boundaries need to exist, and all of those things.  

Minaa: Mmm, I love that. It makes me think about how people are so hungry for connection sometimes that they assume that every relationship has to be, you're my best friend. We're confidants, you belong in my circle of intimacy. And I love what you're speaking to, because it plays a role in the work I do with helping people remember our circle of support, and how it ranges from a circle of intimacy to a circle of friendship and friendship also falls on the spectrum. And even having a circle of participation where maybe I chat with this person because we have being mothers and we have that in common. And so, we hang out after mommy and me group but that's the only time we chat. Right, and then in my family, you know, maybe this is just the cousin that I see at the cookout, and that's all right we kiki and we laugh, we get along at the cookout, but I don't have to invite them over for dinner every Saturday, because maybe we just don't have that close connection. And I just love that you're framing it that way because I think again, going back to this epidemic we're in around loneliness I think often people strive for their family to be this, their closest connection and we're biologically wired for that, so it makes sense.  

But I do think that what you're speaking to allows us to recognize that we can have healthier relationships. If we allow people to be who they are we meet them where they are, and we assess well how do you fit into my life and maybe it is too overwhelming for me to talk to you every day and so that once a month check in is enough to sustain me and sustain this relationship, or else we might have conflict, or else we might just not get along.  

And so, what I also hear you talking to though, Nedra is the sense of empowerment and the sense of choice. And I think that often in this line of work I'm sure you can relate, and I think you did an Instagram post on this recently where people will say well that's easier said than done. That's easier said than done Nedra, it was easy for you to write that out but practicing it, I can't do hard things. How do we help people get out of this victimhood. How do we help people shift those- well first what are some mental roadblocks that keep people in a state of victimhood, and how can people learn to now become more resilient and recognize that they are not powerless people. And as you state in your book you have choice. Right. And so, when things are happening outside of your control. What does it look like for you to look inward and say well I can control this thing, but it does take resilience, and it takes confidence to be able to have that type of perspective. So can you walk people through what those mental roadblocks look like that keeps them in that state of victimhood and how can they start to shift that. 

Nedra: It's that statement that you mentioned, it's easier said than done, other people have more resources to be able to do certain things. I think about when Michelle Obama, when her husband was in the White House and you know she woke up every day went and worked out and all of these things and here I am, you know, making an excuse not being the First Lady not having as many responsibilities. I can't get on the Bowflex for 10 minutes, I can't find the time. [Minaa laughs] I can't find the time to work out and you got one and the First Lady of the United States. 5am reading briefs, getting kids off the school, going to 42 meetings, sitting down.  

Minaa: Yep.  

Nedra: How dare I, you know what I have to acknowledge, I don't want to make time for it. I don't want that level of commitment, right.  

Minaa: Mhm. Right. Right. You are speaking the truth. It's the commitment. 

Nedra: It's the commitment and I don't want to do that. I just want the result. I don't want the practice of the result. And so sometimes what I think we really get lost in. We don't want any practice and process. All we want is outcome. And if we can't immediately get outcome. That is too hard. I do it too I say it to I'm sure you have some things you say it around, but it's like that's too hard. When I, when I see certain things I'm like, Oh, I could never. And it's like, at the end of the day, I have to admit that you don't want to.  

Minaa: Yeah.  

Nedra: I don't want to, or maybe I don't want what it takes to get there. When you're thinking of relationships when you're thinking of, you know, saying things to people or, you know, just the different things we have to do in relationships to be in long term relationships, have conversations with people correct them when they are wrong about us, say so it's like always easier said than done and say something to somebody. When they say something, you know mean to you, or you'll keep dealing with it. [Minaa: Yeah.] You know the thing on the opposite side of that is, if you don't do anything about it, it will always be a problem. And that's where I gained a lot of empowerment, I don't want this to forever be a problem, I’m very solution focused. So, a lot of my work is teaching people, what is the solution and how do you implement it.  

Minaa: Right.  

Nedra: If the solution is your mom is always saying things to upset you about how you raise your kids. What do you think we can do about that? And saying it's easier said than done is no work. You've done no work. You've not even tried.  

Minaa: Right.  

Nedra: So, what does the trying look like. What is the practice of getting a person to not say certain things to you about your parenting, what is the process of that look like it's going to look like her maybe being upset. It's going to look like is so there's a, we want the outcome we want the result without any practice and process. That is what keeps us in that victim hood because it's like, I'm not controlling any of this, all of this stuff is happening. I don't know why it's happening. I'll just, you know, I'll just see what happens. People don't get it.  

When people are doing mean things to you or they're saying things in a certain way. They think it's okay because they aren't mean people, they just, this is how they speak, this is how they talk so when they say these things. They're speaking in a way that they know how so if you want them to say something different, do something different, show up for you in a different way. Often, we have to ask, we have to say things to people that are very, maybe very hard for them to hear.  

I was speaking with someone who was saying that they removed someone from their invite list for parties, and the person said hey, why didn't you invite me. And they said because you never show up. If I have a party and 15 people could come, you think I'm gonna invite you and you don't show up. I'm gonna give that invite to a dependable person. I'm gonna invite to you, you are now off the list. And what that person can be upset. They can be, they can feel whatever they need to feel, but the truth of it is you are saving space for people who could show up in your life and that's not a bad thing. So, really getting into your life takes a whole lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage, a lot of practice, and a deep willingness to be in the process. It is not easy. I don't want you to think anything is easy I'm a reformed nail biter, so I know that stuff is not easy. I'm looking at my nails every day, oh how hard it is to not just bite my little nail, you know like, it's not easy. It's not easy but it's possible.  

Minaa: It's possible.  

Nedra: It's possible with practice.  

Minaa: Exactly. Exactly. And it makes me think of practice requires us to keep trying. Because even in the examples you shared when you said like well this person responded that way and so we shut down and we say I can't try again, or that next person I want to communicate with well that person responded this way. So, we're carrying our history into new relationships, instead of practicing how to continuously show up in these relationships, and I have a question that I don't think it's too much of a pivot but I kind of want to talk about communication really quickly, because, and I'm curious to know your perspective on this.  

Doing this work around boundaries, doing this work on really helping people build communication one of the things I find is, boundaries can somewhat be a societal issue because I think collectively, people are used to watered down language. They are used to things being sugar coated. They are used to indirect language so badly that when someone says to you like you use your example no, you're not invited to the event. Oh my god, it literally when you are saying something in a direct manner. It becomes this form of offense because it shows that we are so used to either lying to each other. Or let's keep it real right, we're so used to lying to people and it's and being fed those lives, or we struggle, just with deeply hearing the truth no matter how honest and compassionate it is.  

And I think this can apply in our dysfunctional homes but even just thinking about dysfunctional relationships. Often a lot of your touches upon the fact that communication is required. If we want to change cycles, but it just makes me think of this culture of it being so hard to communicate for some people because they're used to a style of communication that is so indirect. They're used to being in their autonomy, and they're also conflating things that leaves them deeply wounded when someone was just simply trying to be honest with you to invite in more connection and further this relationship which is why I told you my boundary is no, and you're having this reaction to me. Right. And so, I'm just curious to know, I don't even know if I have a question in that, but just your thoughts around communication and direct communication and compassionate communication but being open to hearing direct communication. 

Nedra: Is it okay if I do a personal share here.  

Minaa: Yes, of course.  

Nedra: Okay. I recently had a party where I could invite a small amount of people. This is not me from the other example, but I could invite a small amount of people. And I did not invite a family member who I just, I don't talk to this person I think I talked to them once last year. And because it was a small amount of people I thought about, you know, the people I speak to most frequently the people who I speak to, you know, and have like these wonderful, delightful conversations with so those are the people I invited. And it got back to me that this person was really upset that they weren't invited. Now I was shocked. It's like really, I don’t talk to them. That's the first thing I said, I don't even talk to this person, not in a bad way.  

Yeah, it's like, I literally don't talk to this person on a regular basis so if you tell me hey, you can only invite this amount of people. I never thought to invite that I've not invited them to many other things so it's interesting. And so, I called them, and I said, hey, I hear you're upset about they were so shocked that I called, oh my gosh, you didn't have to call me I said well I did because I heard that you were upset. And I don't want that to be the energy between us because I really have no issue with you. I literally didn't send you an invite. Because I haven't talked to you in a year. I haven't talked to you. And so, it's not that I wouldn't want you there if we had a different type of relationship. It's really that I invited the people that I talk to on a regular and consistent basis. So, there's not any animosity, any anger or anything like that, between you and I, we just don't have a certain type of relationship. And, you know, she thanked me she said you know I hadn't even considered that like I was really, you know, I just, you know, it kind of hurt my feelings I said I know it feels really sucky to be left out of something right like I can, I can understand that but I just want you to know that you weren't left out intentionally. It wasn't a thought that crossed my mind. You weren't left out it, you know, and so I think sometimes with communication, it could be really hard, because you have to deal with what I contributed which was, you're right. Oops. But also, do we need to be working on a closer relationship if you want some invites.  

Minaa: Right, right. [both laughing] 

Nedra: So, there is something for both of us in this. So, it's not just on me but we have to be willing to have those conversations because it is awkward. She was shocked that I called but you were already talking about it with other people so I was gonna let it go but I said you know what, this is 2023 Nedra. Let me call her. There has to be a willingness to sit in discomfort in conversations with people who you know, you care about, you love, they want to maybe improve the relationship, they're willing to, you know, apologize or say something I think there are some people who are deeply offensive, deeply defensive. Also, people who can demean you. When you have something to say you know that could have went a different way I could have called somebody else. You know, I know a few people if I would have called them about that they would have cussed me out. 

Minaa: I know people like that too. 

Nedra: They will cuss me out. You just like, oh. But I said this is a reasonable person. This is a person that I can speak with about this thing. How wonderful that we have people who can really hear those things. The thing that, you know, deters us from having those boundary conversations or even communicating a mishap or a shift in a relationship is really those people who don't know how to tolerate the discomfort of things not always going their way. When you say no to them and they can't believe it's like, whoa, like just like you have the opportunity to choose how you show up in the world, what you want in your life and how you use your time money resources and everything else. I have the opportunity as well. And if I say, no, if I say, I don't like this. I have the power to do that, just as you have the power to do that. 

Minaa: Right.  

Nedra: And the other part of it is, it’s not always what we say, because I've heard people speak boundaries in a very pleasant way. I had a woman DM me. I love Set Boundaries Find Peace, but you need to teach people to speak boundaries in a kind way. I said, what are you talking about I don’t usually respond to a lot of DMs, but I just had to know what are you talking about. I recommended your book to my daughter-in-law, she thought the book was so good she recommended it to her daughter in law, and her daughter in law set a boundary with her and she did it unkindly. So, now I’m hooked. I'm like, what did she say?! The daughter-in-law, asked her, please call before you come by our house. 

Minaa: You can't make this stuff up. [laughs] 

Nedra: She didn't yell she didn't scream she sold a woman went on to say, it's my son's house I've been coming over to your house, all this time like she was just. It wasn't the way the daughter-in-law said it, it was just that she said she didn't roll her neck she didn't point her finger, she read set about a book you recommended her because apparently, she needed some boundaries. So, she read the book that you suggested. And she said, oh my gosh, I’ve got to set this boundary with my mother-in-law. And so instead of you honoring the boundary, you've told me to amend the book. She said can you add another chapter, where people say, can’t say call before you come over to me. 

Minaa: Wow. 

Nedra: I was, I was just like, why. At that point I just stopped going back and forth. I said, Oh wow. There was nothing wrong with what this girl did, but just the simple fact that somebody will have the audacity to ask you to call before you visit. I want to be in my relationship, so I mean I want to be in my relationship so deep and tough. Please tell me if it's something you need to do say not do show up as whatever it is. I want to know because that's how much I love my people. I want to do all the things so if you need Nedra to call before she comes. Let me know. Okay. I'm gonna do it. I’m gonna call, say it’s me, baby. I'm up the street. No, not a good time. Bye.  

Minaa: [laughs] Yes. Oh my gosh, it's also like, I'm going to recommend you this book because you need boundaries but just don't set any with me.  

Nedra: Don't set any with me. We have to become better at dealing with discomfort. Instead of dealing with our discomfort, what we tend to do is try to make other people never make us uncomfortable. [Minaa: Yes, yes.] Don't say this to me, don't do this to me, make sure you say yes to everything. As long as I want you at my party, stay at my party, whenever I want you to buy me so that we have is like, if they can't do everything that we want them to do. Oh no, they a problem. They are now a problem because you can't make me uncomfortable. You can't make me feel like I have to, you know ask for something. You can't make me feel like I said something wrong way. You can't make me feel like I didn't support you. That's information in relationships though. And maybe I feel that way, you know, because I'm open to it. When my kids tell me you're not listening. I'm like, what, okay, what was it, because you're right. 

Minaa: Yeah. Yeah.  

Nedra: That's why we got half the story. You're right. Correct. I'm not going to try to convince you you're right I was listening. Let me put on my listening ears because I was trying to listen to a podcast too. So, let me get it together and really listen. You know, people say things about you. Sometimes it has value. Yeah, and it can really deepen a relationship. If you listen to it, and just get out of your feelings enough to buy it. But when people have to dance around your feelings, they can't say anything to you. [Minaa: Yeah.] And that's a whole that's a whole lot of us. We can't be spoken to. And when I see people acting a certain way that's like, oh, this really don't fit the environment, I know that they have a lot of people in their life they cannot talk to them. Oh, you can’t be spoken to. That's why you acting like this, right, because no one can say anything to you. Everybody has to pretend like what you're doing is okay how you show up in the world is okay. No one wants to correct you, because you've made it so uncomfortable for them to do so. It is really important that we strive, strive to be correctable. 

Minaa: Mhm. And that is what community care is. And it makes me think of how are we taking ownership of our lives when we feel lonely, and saying, Well, maybe it's possible you don't have the connections you want, because everything that you just said right now. You make it hard for people to want to be in relationship with you. And that is why you're struggling with relationships. That is why a lot of us are lonely. A lot of us think we're operating with expectations but we're operating through the lens of entitlement. We, I like to look at expectations as desires that I have around what it means to be in relationship with me and so this is how I want to be spoken to. This is what it looks like to show up for me, but a demand is you do what I say you act the way I desire, and there is no ands, ifs, or buts, there is no talk back. How dare you say that you can’t support me in this moment and at the drop of a dime and come over when I tell you I need support.  

And I bring that up because I shared an Instagram post recently on ways you can respond to someone who says that they are not okay. And I gave some different scripts, and in one of the scripts, I shared language around like you know I'm really sorry that you're going through this right now, is it okay if I call you back later at X time because right now I'm unavailable. And there were so many people in the comments that literally said, if my friend doesn't drop everything they're doing and get in their car and race to me when I say I'm not okay. I don't need that kind of friendship. And I was just like, where, where does this entitlement come from, where we are forgetting about the lives and the needs of the people we want to be in relationship with. So even when people are trying to accommodate us that's not enough. Because when I'm in a crisis that's urgent, so you better drop everything for me. When I'm uncomfortable that's urgent so you better start people pleasing and give me the thing that I desire, you know, and it just makes me think about how you I'll pivot a little, a little because I really want people to have those practices on building their chosen family.  

You know we talked earlier about estrangement, or is it just ghosting, or is it just the discomfort right, but I'm thinking about people who are like you know what Nedra I've done a lot of the things you shared I realized I want this relationship with this person I've tried I've done the work and they're really harmful, and I really want to start building my circle of support but I want to make sure I'm mindful that I am not redeveloping patterns in building these new relationships. I also want you to talk however Nedra to dating. Because when we think of dysfunctional families. I also think it's important for us to think of how we may recreate the dysfunctional families with the people we choose to partner with. Right. And so, I want to know whether it be in a friendship, building our community but even developing a romantic relationship, so that we are not recreating dysfunction in these new relationships. What are some things that we should look out for what are some things that are red flags, what really defines a healthy relationship. 

Nedra: For people from dysfunctional families, I always think of. Does this seem familiar, and if it feels familiar maybe it's something to look out for when you've had dysfunctional relationships. But very early on, we can see who people are and we have to move away from really liking someone's cologne or perfume and more towards deeper things like values, connection, common interest, communication, boundaries, and so many other things I am often shocked when I see couples, and we go through their like you know meeting story and it's like, it was so traumatic in the beginning. It's like wait a minute, you guys are married. You're married with all that stuff that happened in the first month in the first year because you're seeing stuff with people and because sometimes it is us wanting to be in a relationship, more than we want to be in a healthy relationship. And sometimes it is us wanting to be married, more than we want to be married long term.  

And so, you have to think about the goals of your romantic partnership, if my goal is to have a sustainable relationship with someone, I'm going to date different. I'm going to be looking for okay is this person communicating, when I said this, how did they respond to it. What were they being emotionally unavailable when I challenge them on that. How do they respond to it, how do they accept feedback. What do they do when I present a boundary. How do I respond when they present a boundary. These are all things we find out in the courting period that we need to pay attention to. If you've got anything that we need to just bypass because we enjoy this person's company, you can enjoy a lot of folks company. You can enjoy your own company. But sometimes that can be more peaceful than getting into another toxic relationship for the sake of being in a relationship and so when you come with, you know, some of those things that you're familiar with, it can, it can be a key up for you know maybe this is some past stuff. I will say, you know, it can always be healthy to run some things past a therapist because sometimes I've seen it where people are like concerned about stuff that's actually pretty healthy.  

The person wants to see you every day. You, you don't want them to see you. The person wants to communicate with you and you like oh they're always trying to talk about. You don't want to talk about stuff so there are times when because of our history, we can block out some of those very good things we're not just taking out the good bacteria we taking out all the bacteria and so now we're creating a whole ‘nother problem where we can't date anybody who is of use because we're like oh my god this is so weird this this feels boring this is like, you know, it feels too normal we have. I once heard someone say we have too much in common. What? 

Minaa: As a bad thing? 

Nedra: The heart of this is like we're the same person. I said listen opposites attract but what they do not do is stick together long term, you want somebody who you y'all both feel this way about family y'all both and I'm not talking about hobbies and stuff those opposite things don't matter, but in terms of our values how we communicate our connection. Those things are so important. So, if you feel like you're too much like somebody, you want to argue. Because that's what I'm hearing you, you need more chaos, because you think that's loving to be like to have some combat in a relationship and not be able to just sit on a couch and oh, we both like this movie, you want to fight about what movie to watch. You want to fight about where to go eat, how to raise kids, those things are not actually loving, that is a that is retraumatizing, that is just a repeat of chaos and sometimes we don't know that right we feel like, well that's what you do in relationships. No, that's not what you do in healthy relationships that might be what you do in a relationship where you're repeating a pattern that's unhealthy.  

Minaa: Everything that you just said, you know, it's just so, so important and I think when thinking of. Yeah, just challenging that dysfunction. It just makes me think of really of how important it really is to have our values in order. And the healing that it takes, and I love that you shared the idea of even sometimes you have to bring this stuff to a therapist because we are so used to chaos and I hear it all the time where people will say this relationship is boring. And when you ask what's boring about it, so they want to talk all the time. They want to be around me all the time, they're so affectionate. They're always doing this and it's like, what is making you so resistant to that thing and it's probably because you never had it. You don't know what to do with it. You have no idea what to do with this thing. And I just think that it's so important for people to use what you're teaching us today. In our lives to also recognize that victimhood piece and our choice and who we invite in our life, because it also makes me think of that this idea when people say I'm always attracting this person who is attracted this person, and I always say to them well who are you pushing away. Right, in the midst of you inviting because that's what it is. You're attracting all kinds of people, you make a choice to invite certain people into your life. So, what does it look like to examine the traits of the people that you push away and why. What is there that you're actually running from that makes you say I'm going to choose them, instead of that other person, and then saying, I have a type. I'm always attracting me and it's like but you just turned down, because you just turned down right to my place is nice.  

Nedra: I have a type too. I love me so nice. Yes, friend, a type of cashier, a type of family member, just be nice, be kind, be respectful, own your stuff. Yeah, we should have a type. Our shouldn't be I like somebody who rough around the edges. Okay, well, you have fun with that, you have those edges. So, it's possible for us to have a type but those things need to be healthy things. Those things don't need to be things that are tough to figure out and you know really in relationships. We get better at relationships with practice, none of us start off with impeccable skills. You know we start off as the most, so you know kids they're so selfish they're not thinking about other people you have to teach them like, say hi to that person. Oh, I'm supposed to say hi. Hi. You know, so you're teaching people how to be in relationship, like we're still learning. So, it's not that you know we're terrible people and we want to be in these bad relationships. Sometimes we don't even know what we're doing to attract the same thing over and over. And most of the time it’s looking for the same thing. You know, I've heard people describe their type to me, and it's like, you have a type of person that's just not going to be a good person to you, you've described the worst qualities on a personality test. Let's look at a personality test you've picked all the worst qualities a person can have. You have you have mastered the recipe for a unhealthy person. [both laugh] So, you know, sometimes we have to get out of our type 

Minaa: Yeah.  

Nedra: We have to get out of our type, and we have to get into what we want long term. It may not come in the package that you wanted to come in. It may not present in the exact way. You know, I find sometimes with people who have unhealthy family relationships, they will meet a nice partner. And when that partner comes from a healthy family. That is so uncomfortable sometimes for a person with a dysfunctional family because they're like, why are they having these gatherings. Why are the parents calling. Why is it just like, you didn't have this stuff but guess what is so healthy. 

Minaa: Yeah. 

Nedra: It's not problematic it’s enmeshed. This is what a healthy relationship looks like and we can't discard that because it's not what we had. 

Minaa: Yes. Yes, everything that you're saying is just so important. And I'm in the grand scheme of all of this, it makes me think about the people who are really taking in everything that you're seeing now, or maybe they have been digesting it from your work on Instagram, even in your books and they're recognizing, man, I've messed up. I have been dysfunctional. I have been that toxic friend. I have been that unhealthy partner. Where do I go from here. How do I start doing the work of making amends. Can you just give people insight to that process of what repair looks like. 

Nedra: You go to the person with accountability, and with that ownership. You have to be willing to talk to them about what you directly did that you know of, because there may be some other things that you're not aware of. You have to be willing to allow them to speak to you about how you’ve shown up in their life. And the biggest way to apologize to a person who really to repair is to do better. Going forward, you have to practice new behaviors, you have to practice those new behaviors consistently. Because if you are your old self. That is a problem, you can't go to a person with an apology and say oh my gosh I apologize for, you know, this thing I did, or I apologize for how I was at such and such time and not change that. It’s really important for repair that you change who you are you show them something different.  

There is, you know, there are some people in your life who will ignore it. There are some people in your life who will allow you to show up in any kind of way that you want to show up. And then there are others who demand accountability. They want you to show up and say you know what, what I did was wrong I think the biggest challenge is, no one wants to be the person who has done a bad thing to another person. That's why we don't acknowledge it. Like no one wants to be the person that acknowledges that. Like, no one wants to have to say, gosh, I did take advantage of you like can you imagine like that's, that's really hard to acknowledge. I took advantage of you. It's really hard to acknowledge, I was not the best parent for you. I was jealous of you. You know these are, these are hard, really hard things to say to a person, but I promise you that in saying them, you are creating a healthier relationship.  

That is what the relationship needs, because often when we do something to other people we want to go back to the relationship without apology, without ownership, we just want them to get over and we want to go on to the next day. That is, that was the piece with the cut offs if we go back to that. I just see that not working anymore for people. I think that way of showing up after you've done these big things. It's just not working anymore. It used to be a great strategy where people could like flip out on you on Friday and call you on Sunday. It just doesn't work anymore. Now people are like, you flipped out on me on Friday, you're out of here buddy. Now you're going to call me and say hey I'm sorry I flipped out on you on Friday. Calling you to make amends. So, I'm seeing a lot more cut offs where someone has actually did something, and they won't repair it. Which is super sad because it's like, oh my gosh this is your brother is your best friend, it’s your dad, it’s your, we all mess up, but if you're unwilling to repair it. This won't be the only relationship you lose, there will be others. There will be others because repairing is a wonderful people skill. 

Minaa: Yeah. Yeah, I love that, Nedra. This conversation was so refreshing and amazing and nourishing. I know I feel this way I can't imagine how people who tuned in tonight. So, thank you, Nedra so much for your work, for your wisdom, for sharing it with us. I am grateful for it and I'm sure this community is grateful for it as well, so I want to thank you.  

Nedra: You're welcome, and thank you. 

[Uplifting theme music begins] 

Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, and Nikki Roda. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

[Theme music concludes]