CIIS Public Programs Podcast

transcript

[Cheerful theme music begins] 
 
This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

With the second renaissance and re-emergence of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, the general public and therapists alike are confronted with new areas of exploration, but with few systematic frameworks available. In this episode, clinical psychologist, founder of the Center for Existential Exploration, and author Kile Ortigo is joined by licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and social justice advocate Mary Sanders for a conversation on the psychospiritual and therapeutic use of psychedelics, which includes the process of psychedelic integration. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on August 26th, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 

Mary: I'm Mary Sanders, and it's such an honor to share this space with Dr. Kile Ortigo, and just dive deep into his new book Beyond the Narrow Life: A Guide for Psychedelic Integration and Existential Exploration. Um, first I’d like to just start by honoring our ancestors Kile, as you in your introduction in the book, you honored a few important ancestors to this work, and I wanted to see if you'd like to name a few. 

Kile: Yes, thank you, Mary. There's so many people to name and that have influenced me personally and directly and indirectly to. And I think the one that I like to really call out, especially, that's an indirect influence is María Sabina because she really took a risk in letting westerners into the sacred mushroom ceremonies for the first time and there's a relatively straight line, going back to my mentors and the people that influenced me and this work and to her. So, I she is someone that I really just want to call out and thank. 

Mary: Thank you. And I want to honor a newer ancestor, Klevia Lee, who really opened the path for a lot of Black folks in psychedelics. And I think it's so important that we name all the folks who have supported us in our journey so that we're here together and holding this space. So, I'm just going to dive deep or there's so many offerings that you provide and so many gifts, and I wish we could talk about all of them. But in our one hour, we're going to kind of pick and choose here. So, in your book you write, "if psychedelics can open one's mind, then integration can open one's life." Can you start by defining integration and your thoughts of the power and potential of psychedelic integration work? 

Kile: Yeah, you know, integration is one of those words that's thrown around a lot. And you know, there are several definitions. Some people are very poetic in how they describe integration. I kind of go back and forth between just a basic definition of how to kind of recall and apply the insights that one gains in a psychedelic journey to their everyday life. But usually, metaphors are really helpful and thinking about integration, the journey, of course, is different for every person, the life journey. But some of the metaphors that I know, you know, one that comes to mind the most that I bring into the book at the end actually, is trying to think of building a cathedral from our lives and from our growth, personal growth process versus a house of cards. But others that I know, a lot of people have used include thinking about a tapestry weaving metaphor. But of course the seed that's planted and growing into a full tree. All these things are beautiful, but I think what's important and what we do as individual therapists is help people find out what that journey is for themselves. What resonates. 

Mary: Beautiful, and I love the metaphors. Because so often in psychedelic work we are really working with metaphors, right? And really digging deep. What is that meaning? Why did that symbol show up? And so, as we kind of navigate your book, I was wondering if you can kind of give some folks some tips and tricks of what to expect and what's kind of the framework that you have developed for the reader. 

Kile: Yeah. So, what I was doing with my book with several things was just kind of a impossible task. So that's why it was really engaging throughout the whole journey of writing it. But I wanted to create a guide that could stand alone, whether or not someone's had a psychedelic journey but would have kind of an exploration of these themes that can come up in a journey. And I wanted it to be as accessible as possible. That was really important to me and to be able to stand alone. So, that being said, what I thought was a good entry way or path to, to do something like this that was very ambitious was to use the hero's journey from Joseph Campbell's work.  

Since it was popularized, a lot of people in the West know Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey or the monomyth. And the people who don't most people know Star Wars, which is based pretty explicitly on the hero's journey, but the idea that Campbell came up with was in looking at all the world's mythologies or most of the world's mythologies, and especially mystical traditions and religions around the world stories that there was a what he believed was a common thread that ran through all of these and that was kind of the human journey, human story. And besides just being a really powerful and interesting, engaging story. It's been helpful for people and thinking about making meaning out of our individual lives, especially challenging times, and how to be connected with our core sense of self, in our place in the world, from our, you know, family to our community to even being part of the cosmos. So, I thought that was a pretty epic story and framework to use and try to update and weave into my story of integration.  

Mary: And I did notice that. I noticed that throughout the book, there is not only Joseph Campbell's, but references to our more modern-day fiction. So, I believe there was Panther, there was Lion King and, you know, I read a lot. I read quite a number of books on psychedelics, and I was curious of you know, what inspired you to bring these modern-day fiction stories into your book. It's something new. And I realized for myself, I have some movies to watch. 

Kile: [laughing] You know, that's one of the main impacts I want to have for people is a list of movies that they need to watch they haven't seen yet. [laughs] So, what's interesting about Joseph Campbell and just use of mythology, comparative mythology, and all that is we tend to think of it as something that's only relevant to the past, to our history and past cultures. Maybe some Indigenous cultures, maybe to religious studies. But how I came into this work with depth psychology, Carl Jung, Campbell, et cetera, was through my film studies work. [Mary: Mm!] And the metaphor that my film mentors used was the film is to our collective unconscious what our dreams are to our personal unconscious. [Mary: Wow.] So, film is, especially really big and important films, that can be defined in several different ways are really speaking to something that's important to our modern culture or cultures, or communities. It's, you know, retelling of a grand story that was important in the past, maybe updating it, which mythology needs to be updated. Our stories need to be updated, just like our cultures, right? We learn things over time. We confront different challenges than we had before. Especially in this age of, you know, advanced technology. So, film is the closest place that we can get to our living myth. 

Mary: Mmm. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that and I do think that, that so much opportunity for us to connect with film and, and also to our psychedelic experiences, which right, sometimes you're like, you can't make this stuff up, right? And so and so I'm looking forward to integrating that in my, in my own practice. And so, something you mentioned earlier is, is using this as a standalone book for folks, who are working with psychedelics, but also other non-ordinary states. And so, as a psychedelic assisted therapist, I know sometimes integration can be a little bit intimidating because we focus so much on the actual psychedelic experience. And so, I’m wondering for the folks out there who are psychedelic assisted therapists or maybe considering this work in the future. How might they use your book and their practice? 

Kile: You know, my first book that I wrote, I was a co-author on was a treatment manual for therapists. It was for a professional audience about how to do this specific treatment for their clients and that influenced, of course, my approach to writing this book. But fundamentally, especially as a more existentially oriented psychotherapist, psychologist, I think we are more human than not. There's more that brings us together in spite of our unique experiences. So, you know, I don't like those clear divides between therapist and patient. So, I wanted to make this participatory for the therapist themselves. So, my advice always for folks who are therapists who want to be therapists is to do the work yourself and that’s really a lifelong journey, and keeps us humble, keeps us engaged, keeps us creative. And so that would be my first recommendation is if this is something that you're interested in, curious about doing, then before bringing it to, to use with your clients, go through the journey and the book yourself and see what comes up. I think that's really fun personally, I like the parallel process working with growth and with healing and transformation to be doing that work myself. And I think as therapists, when we’re really engaged in that process, we're touched by the lives of the people that we work with. And so that I hope is seen in the book too. 

Mary: And what might you say, you know, for folks who we know that, you know, there's significant barriers to, to therapy. And so, folks, may, you know, want to do this work on their own and maybe, or maybe with a friend or peers do you have any thoughts around, how they might approach, approach the work? 

Kile: Yeah, I think fundamentally that's going to be the most common use of the book, actually. And I did write it for that because, you know, I believe in therapy. I love individual long-term, depth-oriented therapy. That's my bread and butter. That's what I really appreciate being able to do and that's my career. And there are so many access to care issues with getting that level of care and attention. With cost, time, so many barriers, and different kind of expectations about what therapy is, how to engage in it, training, and some of these topics like psychedelics, right? Psychedelic integration. That's relatively new, above ground for most people. It was never talked about in my training program. My entire PhD undergrad, if I didn't do film studies work. I don't think I would have really heard anything about psychedelics except from outdated research in one of my classes as an undergrad, it gets really that minimal. But I think what is important, especially for me I'm the first one in my family to go to college, is to really think about access in terms of cost and, you know, not talking down to people. But if someone's willing to do the work independently, or with peers, with friends, with family, with teachers, right teachers play such an important role in our society and community. That there are resources out there that they can use. And so that's why I created this. And you know, as you know as a therapist too, it's not what we tell our clients, it's how they feel often times, what they experience based on how they're opening up in session, and what they're experimenting with outside of therapy. I’m not even talking about drugs here or anything really super cutting-edge, just being able to open up in relationships with others, or to go to a museum, when they're feeling kind of a lack of engagement in life and starting to open their eyes that the experience is where a lot of the healing happens too. So, even though it's a book, I put in a lot of exercises and activities to make it a journey that can be very individualized, that's about participation. Not hearing what I have to think, or say, but what you experience as you go through it. 

Mary: Absolutely, and I felt that when I, when I read the book and it was really exciting because I, you know, started to listen to some of the music that you recommended. I went outside and I connected with the moon and so I was like, wow, okay, like I'm really feeling it and that was in the earlier stages of the book. And, and what I noticed is throughout the book, your voice is so warm. You know your guidance is so gentle and I did really feel your presence. And of course, we know each other, but I really loved how when you dove into the depth of cosmic awareness, which I you know, I find initially intimidating but we dove in there you would say it's okay, do you feel overwhelmed? That's okay, just check in with yourself. And I just found that so, as if you know, you were there to validate my experience. And so, I really appreciated that. And, and so I'm curious around kind of your motivation and tension around just diving deep in the arch one into cosmic awareness. Yeah, I’d just love to hear about that. 

Kile: Yeah, it’s not an easy topic. It's not, you know. And that was another thing that I never got in my psychology courses. Like, but guys, we gotta know the stage right, of the story that we’re all in and because I wanted the book to stand alone. I wanted to have some surprises in there and I wanted there to be some deep dives and things that people weren't necessarily expecting and I thought starting with the sheer size space time of the cosmos just from a purely like, cutting edge science, but pretty materialistic worldview. That that's enough to kind of shake up our minds and get us out of our kind of complacency, lack of mystery, and life and everyday life. Because there is a hell of a lot of mystery if we just think about the number of stars and galaxies, and things that we think we figured out so far. So, I thought that would be a good place to do that. And to kind of rectify this big gap that I had in my psychology courses where no one was talking about that. And a lot of people in psychedelic journeys too, do have some connection with space it’s not for everybody, and it's not in every journey. But sometimes people do feel like they get connected to what this thing is that we're all in. Sometimes it stays with the Earth, our solar system, the sun and a lot of times it goes beyond that. So, I thought it was a nice parallel. 

Mary: Yeah. I really appreciate it. I definitely listed the mystery, right? And so I was, where is he headed after this? Wow, and, and I just really, really love just hearing your voice throughout the book and it being very consistent. And so, I think it, it's so helpful to have that when you're doing this work on your own, to know that there's this, this support there in the process. 

Kile: Yeah, and then that's why the I had metaphorical allies for each of the major sections of the book. And that's why curiosity was so important at the beginning, is because if we can bring an attitude of curiosity to our experience or to the things that can be scary or can induce a sense of awe, which does involve feeling small or uncertain, then we can go in and through it and find, you know, more information, more ways to grow and a greater awareness. So that's why there was a synergy there. 

Mary: Right, right. They see yeah, the curiosity of just, let's be let's just, you know, get back into our feet back to Earth, get grounded and just be this observer and ask the questions. And as if we're doing this for the very first time and maybe, you know, could be for the very first time. And also in the first, arch, you talk about expanding our experiential awareness, and by engaging these four modes of experiencing. So, it's our thoughts, our emotions, our body, and behavior, and you shared how in psychedelics, or our other non-ordinary states. We kind of can like, shake it up and you just and you describe it, and shaking it up and possibly harnessing this chaos to create these new possibilities. And I just love this idea, right, in this chaos is new possibilities, and I would just love to hear, you know, more about this and just share what does that look like? 

Kile: Well, in this first arch, there are three in the book. The first one is expanding awareness and the parallel and the hero's journey is the preparation phase or the departure phase and, in psychedelic psychotherapy it's the preparation phase. And so, part of the four modes of experiencing and thinking about the different aspects of our present centered experience was also an opportunity to introduce some skills for helping cope in the moment, using different parts of our experience, that our emotional experience, our thoughts, our interpretations, our body, and our active behavior. So, there I was doing a few different things with that chapter, but one is to help before we enter into what we're about to talk about the existential trials of initiation where we go into even kind of more personally heavy material. So, these four modes are ways to bring again that sense of curiosity to the present moment because often times, and it's very adaptive, we're pretty focused and on something and maybe like our conversation right now. Where we're thinking, in our thinking mind and we're in that mode, and it's kind of intellectual, but maybe not paying as much attention to our emotions, but certainly probably not paying much attention to our behavioral choices that we’re making, like my gestures. Like all, this is kind of unconscious that I’m doing right now. [Mary: Right.] What I'm feeling in my body, like these things. So, we get kind of narrow, in our focus and attention, and that's very helpful, with or without psychedelics though, and certainly in meditative practices we can expand that beyond the things that we typically by our personality of right habits, pay attention to, and think about and observe things in our experience that are often ignored. So, this gets really kind of interesting and wacky for a lot of people on psychedelic journeys because of synesthesia, all the various forms of that and you know, parts of the experience, is just such a wide range of what people can experience on a psychedelic journey. And sometimes I think, it’s compensation for what our biases might be, in our everyday waking consciousness. So, it's one way of bringing some curiosity, to different ways that we can expand in the state. And of course, in that integration process. 

Mary: Wonderful, and it has me thinking about this opportunity, right of, you know, our default mode network turning down, and that chatter turning down, and seeing what shows up. And then like you mentioned using that alive curiosity to, to be curious about. You know, when I'm in this state, what does that look like for me? What does that feel like? What kind of thoughts come up? What kind of images show up? And just allowing for that, for this- these experiences to unfold while noticing and being aware as it as it occurs. And yeah, so I'm so, I'm so glad we talked about the coping because we're almost going to move into arch two. But before we do, you also described the importance of enjoyable and enriching activities and it's something we have talked about in the past, in terms of integration, is the importance of joy and celebration. And I was mentioning in my Black medicine space how dance, and singing, and moving our bodies and laughing following ceremonies. Is so important and also in our community gathering. Right? Bringing some lightness into this space after, after all this hard work, right? And so, I’d just love to hear more about how your thoughts on playfulness and, and yeah kind of lightness in this space. 

Kile: Absolutely, and this certainly can be a challenge because in a lot of, like mental health treatment traditionally, from psychoanalysis to kind of behaviorism and CBT. There has been a very serious attitude towards everything even though in psychodynamic thinking like humor is a defense mechanism, but it's one of the highest and healthiest defense mechanisms we have. So, even if it's just a defense mechanism. It's a pretty sophisticated and good one and it's not just a defense mechanism. Like, joy is part of the human experience just as much as pain and suffering can be too. And when people, I mean both of us have worked a lot with veterans too, and we know one of the unfortunate symptoms of post-traumatic stress tends to be numbing, emotional numbing. And why that's so unfortunate is because it's not just a numbing of the quote, unquote negative emotions, or difficult experiences, but also the positive end. So, part of this kind of opening up process and healing process is to get the full range of human experience and feeling and so joy is often a part of that. I know there was a retreat in Europe in Amsterdam that was part of our program. We had the option to go out there and to join and volunteer. And there was a gentleman who wanted some healing and his truffle journey and had a surprising experience where he's basically seeing colorful monkeys the entire time and laughing for the like six to eight hours and he was like, you know, that wasn't my intention, but maybe that's what I needed. And yes, that is what he needed. So, I think that was a joyful example of this, but it comes with the territory of growth and healing, right? It involves being able to fully engage and, and whatever ways that we can as a human. 

Mary: Great. Thank you. Thank you for that, for that example. So, as we right, kind move towards this lightness, we move also towards the second arch, which is confronting the existential trials of initiation and you really highlight the main- three main themes of death, loneliness, and meaningless, meaninglessness. And when I was reading this, the second arch, I thought, wow, how powerful is this? This thing, these themes in a time of pandemic, most of us have thought of our own mortality, have experienced death, we've been in isolation. And then really, in this time of isolation have really reflected on what is my meaning or what is my intention? And people have made pretty significant changes in their lives and maybe what we can just start off, is kind of what folks can expect from this second arch. And what are some main things that you would want them to know just to get a little bit of taste because there's so much there.  

Kile: Yeah, you know, I sketched out the plan for this book over two years ago. It was about two and a half years ago. So, way before the pandemic hit, and as the pandemic or the coronavirus was coming into news in January. I remember early January is, when it was first coming in, I was writing my chapter on death and loss and then I went into isolation and loneliness and, you know, absurdity and meaninglessness. So, there was really a deep parallel process for me, that was unplanned for sure. Right? And the themes that were, we're going out there and everyone's lives to certain extent and what I was needing to write about in it gave an extra weight to this, so it wasn't just so intellectualized, like it was part of the living process of writing and being in the world and continues to be. And it's because those things our part of our human experience, whether we want them to be or not and there are many ways because they can bring up anxiety, uncertainty, and fear that we can defend against them, try to protect ourselves from thinking about them. So, there's a lot of intention, the middle phase of this. The hero's journey is the trials of initiation, and I thought existential trials would be an important frame for that because all the things that make our individual lives and experiences different. There are a few things that we all have to confront to certain extent in life. And these are some of the big three, that, that I think we can benefit from if we go in and through that fear and curiosity was important. But this is where I brought in the metaphorical ally of acceptance because there's a certain extent that we just have to accept our mortality. That loss is part of life in order for us to actually fully engage with living and to open our eyes to all the possibilities too. So that was, you know, the core of the book in many ways. And so that the preparation work before was hinting at some of these themes. But then this is where we go directly towards them. 

Mary: Beautiful And- what I was going through these main themes, I thought to myself. Oh, you know, this area of death, you know, I don't, I don't, I'm not too worried about it. And there was a line in there that mentioned, you know, often death anxiety isn't something we're consciously aware of, and for, and, you know, you provided this example, you know, what, a young person dies, you often ask. Well. How did they die? And you want kind of this storyline. And that being a way to cope right, a way to protect ourselves from having to put ourselves in that same type of risk. And so, it really open, opened my eyes. And, you know, psychedelics, or are being used, or have several research studies to explore existential crisis for folks who are terminally ill. And so, I was curious, if you could talk a little bit more about that, in terms of how the experience can maybe help us move more towards acceptance, the second ally. 

Kile: Yeah, I mean, this research, you know, Bill Richards, of course, who was one of my mentors in CIIS and wrote the book’s forward. It's such important in seminal work. I used to work in hospice too and so inherently meaningful and challenging but important because that's all a journey that we have to take. It's very interesting how these experiences in the research on psychedelics, whether there's a full-blown, traditionally, defined mystical experience or something else. How there was a decrease in existential distress and anxiety, even for people who didn't all of a sudden convert to this idea of an afterlife or some sense of the eternal. So, there was something so powerful about the experience, even the mystery of it all. That even for people who remained atheist feeling for them. And so, this was a challenging topic to talk about in the book because I wanted to write in a way that would make kind of the gates into the book, like as wide as possible. I didn't want to like, you know, be speaking only to people who believe in an afterlife or spiritual realm. I wanted people to really make up their own minds or, you know, explore in their own ways, what they think is the mystery of death. What happens during and after and I think it's helpful to explore these questions, even if we go with, you know, the idea that there's not an afterlife because the idea, this is true in a lot of different faith traditions and wisdom traditions around the world, is like if we accept that part of it, then we can more fully appreciate and engage with our present moment and what we do have as a guarantee, which is very little, but it is in the present. It's not about, you know, I'm going to die when I'm 80, it could be any moment. So, it's, it's a deep sense of gratitude and appreciation and an ability to mourn and go through all the various experiences of morning when death does into our lives and loss in some way. 

Mary: Yeah, and I love that you kind of brought up the importance of the conversation. It seems like in our culture there's a lot of avoidance around death and, and, you know, we have our own of course traditions and practices here, but it seems like they're the anxiety or the existential distress around it really supports this avoidance. And I'm kind of curious or I'm hoping that maybe that, that maybe psychedelics, one of the gifts would be that help people talk more about death and the kind of bring it a little more into the mainstream conversation.  

Kile: Hmm. I think that would be really helpful, right? There's a reason why death is called the great equalizer.  

Mary: Hmm. That's right. And is there anything that you would want to kind of share or highlight about the other-- the other themes before we-- before we move on to the third arch? 

Kile: Sure, and, you know, just like the first arch, starting with a big powerful, surprising place, the cosmos, the second arch starts with a powerful surprising place, death and loss, and permanence. And so, I did that to kind of help frame the other themes of our sense of loneliness, to interconnectedness at that move and then facing uncertainty and meaning while still living a life that's guided by our principles, our values that somehow, we still intuitively have, and we have all sorts of stories we can make up about why we have those, but each of us does. And so that that was an important part of that arch to get to that place of meaning and responsibility. Meaning comes with responsibility. 

Mary: Yeah, and it seems like right bringing this conversation forward, we create more spaciousness to- right to bring in that curiosity, bring in that acceptance, but also just normalizing these themes in our lives which would really enhance our interconnectedness, right? And really maybe validate those attachment wounds that we experience that came up in your conversation around loneliness. And so, I think this is, you know, one of your offerings here is to bring that conversation forward. 

Kile: Yeah, thank you for that. I think what's important to note from a process standpoint too is just being able to do a book like this. You can do it on your own. But if you're doing it with a friend- anyone else, like, you're going to have some pretty weighty conversations, and, and it can be vulnerable. And vulnerability is how we build intimacy and connection. So, there's a real salve there for our sense of isolation and disconnection too just in this process. 

Mary: And I you know as soon as you brought that up, it kind of the, the values exercise just popped in my head and really how that could be really helpful in a relationship or in a family system, to help the family or the really, the partnership explore values. What are the values of our family, or where are we going to focus on? And so, I really appreciate how accessible that exercise is and I'm also curious to dive deeper in that as well. 

Kile: Absolutely. 

Mary: Alright. So, we kind of now are moving towards the final, the final arch. Integrating the endless possibilities of the self and beyond. And here, there's a lot of talk around Jung’s archetypal the power of self and really integrating all of our parts, the conscious and the unconscious minds, and you talk about the center that harmonizes the complex dynamics of our psyche. Yeah, let's kind of spend maybe the last good amount of time exploring this and, and what that means to you. 

Kile: Mhm. I mean each of these topics are so huge, right? So, so this one kind of wide-open doors and the possible directions that we can go, and but you know, the self archetype is the capital S Self, so there's lots of confusion when talking about it versus reading about it, but this has been spoken about. It's one of the fundamental concepts too in internal family systems therapy, but it's different in IFS. There's a different more, more of a positive spin on the self than Jung necessarily had. Um, Jung was still overall positive, but it was kind of beyond these concepts even of good and evil per se, but it's the organizing principle, the overarching archetype of the different aspects of ourselves and that lies in the unconscious, and a big motivation for writing this book is trying to chip away at this esoteric idea of individuation.  

The lifelong personality growth movement towards wholeness for the psyche that Jung described, and part of that move was to go beyond the central role of our egos, our personal identity, and our sense of self and have a greater repaired connection with the archetypal selves. All this is like super abstract. So again, why the experiential is so important in the book, the different activities, but the idea is that there- there's something within us that, that is probably connected to our intuition. That's also why like our values the intuitive sense of what are taught values are, what's meaningful to us, paint that as important and it doesn't need to be explained away. It's not about just ways to protect ourselves from things that we fear, which is one of the main roles that the ego has, but it also has a quality that I think is important that we're seeing in a lot of modern psychotherapy, third wave behavioral therapy, like, acceptance and commitment therapy, this idea of flexibility, psychological flexibility. And this has been a theme in a lot of mental health models, that- what- defining health is something that we know there's a million definitions for that, just like psychedelic integration, but one aspect of health is being able to flexibly respond to our environment in ways that are helpful. And so that differs by the situation, differs by what capacities we have, our personalities, etc. So that's one of the gifts of this movement of individuation, is we're expanding our awareness still in this, the different parts of ourselves, but instead of trying to, you know, avoid some of the things that we don't want to think about with ourselves, like the shadow, which is another major theme of this arch, we can actually approach them with, again, curiosity, acceptance, and some compassion, and see what we can learn from this complexity that we're uncovering.  

Mary: And you bring up compassion. So that must be- that's our third ally, is that right? 

Kile: Our third is wisdom, and I chose- 

Mary: Okay. Thank you. [laughs] 

Kile: Well, I chose wisdom because compassion is a part of wisdom, and vice versa. I chose wisdom because I knew it had multiple facets, it was the most kind of complex sophisticated of all those allies. And, you know, I think wisdom is certainly an extension of our awareness our knowledge, insights that we gain personally, collectively, and part of that is an awareness of suffering and our interconnectedness and why compassion is one of the important attitudes that we can bring to that process, and humility, too. Right? So, there are many different facets of wisdom.  

Mary: Right, and those are kind of like our runner-ups. So it sounds like part- within wisdom, we have all these really great allies, kind of like an overarching theme here. And, you know, one thing that you brought up is really the importance as we explore ourself, right? And I think you described it as like, pure awareness, how important it is for us to deconstruct our- the societal expectations, and in some of my work is to really kind of take off these layers in exploring race identity. What folks expect us to be, how--how do we express ourselves, and you mentioned that within, for example, with some of your clients in relation to gender identity and gender expression, and I would love for you to just maybe just kind of touch on that, because I do think it's such an important theme in terms of kind of- kind of rebelling, right. There's societal expectations and sometimes rebelling right against capitalism or the patriarchal system, so that we can kind of come back to ourselves. I would love to hear more about that. 

Kile: Yes. There's so much to say about that too. 

Mary: Right? Right. 

Kile: I, I learned so much from my clients and continue to learn from my clients and their life experiences. And one of the things I started doing LGBTQ+ work as a graduate student and one of my advisors actually transitioned to male when I was in grad school, and so I learned a lot about working with trans-identified folks, and that process, and very honored to have continued that work and area of expertise and interest. And, you know, one of the things when I was first doing this work was recognizing just how fundamental as a cisgender male, how fundamental like that that gender is to me that I never really gave it all that much thought, and the ability to deeply reflect and try to deconstruct some of these assumptions that were- it's kind of programming from various sources about how we should be, how we should act. What we should/shouldn't do, there is definitely a long list of what you shouldn't do as a man, certainly again this is something too I learned working with veterans and a lot of male clients over the years. But in that process it's not about that you need to, you know, come out or transition or become non-binary, that it's not about an end goal because that's going to be different for other people, but in that process of uncovering what these assumptions are, how there are constraints on how we can be, how we can experience, how we can express, how we can connect, how we can love. Like dismantling all of that is where we can really get to this sense of authenticity. Whatever that means for each person. So, I think that's something I like to celebrate, is that authenticity and freedom and that process of seeing what's mine. And what's not mine. 

Mary: Right. That's so beautiful. And that ability to have this, this chapter to help us, right, to take off these constraints like you're mentioning, and then to feel what that's like, right to experiment,  now that that one piece is off of me, or is less tight, I can kind of experiment what- how my body feels, experiment what kind of thoughts come up or how I move in the world and continue to, you know, continue to grow in that process.  

Alright. So, we talked a lot about the different allies, and I'm just kind of curious, you know, we talked about curiosity, we have acceptance and wisdom. And so, I'm just curious of how you were able to define each ally for each arch. And it also kind of kind of reminded me a little bit of the plants I work with, if I want a little bit more of a heart opener, I might work with rose, or if I, you know, really need a strong voice I might turn to Grandma Aya, and so it was really sweet to kind of hear that in this process. And so, I'm curious for you how you were able to come down to these three main things. 

Kile: [laughs gently] It was one of the many challenges. But joyous. I think one of the one of the final themes that I end with in the book is creativity. And so, this was definitely a creative process for me to make these decisions and kind of have that initial brainstorming of all the possibilities, you know, these are the attitudes that I chose, but in the beginning of each of these archs, there's an exercise for invoking these allies internally for you. So, you know, what curiosity means to you as an individual, who represents that in your life, fictional or real-world person, what parts of yourself come up with symbols are there that evoke curiosity or acceptance or wisdom? There's kind of endless flexibility in that process. That's why the book is co-created with whoever's going through it and reading it.  

But I think for me these were values that were essential and core to those phases of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy in the monomyth. So, the first two, that- curiosity, acceptance, we already talked a lot about, like, they were easy. It was the wisdom. That was the hardest one to come up with, and it's kind of a cheat. I chose one that had multiple facets like wisdom. So, you know, you could bring in compassion if that's what you need. If that's the attitude that you need to cultivate in your integration process, then that's there for you. If it's humility, that's there for you too. If it's a sense of inner strength and clarity, then that's there as well. So, all of this was part of the process, but certainly I could have come up with many others that could capture some of these attitudes. But this is where people's values come in, too, and their needs. And what are the life circumstances, what challenges are presenting themselves in the integration process, the meaning-making process. So that's how you can tailor it to what you need. 

Mary: Yeah, and I really, I really like how you brought up that the creativity, because there are so many different offerings in the- in the activities. I think you often named them as your assignment and your choice, and so whether it was like listening to music or like I mentioned checking out the stars or watching a film, there's really a wide range of ways to experience the practice, and so I'm wondering, you know, if you have some guidance around, you know, if someone's leaning more into the- into the thinking or more into the experiential, if you have some- kind of guidance for them, or some guidance around- or some tips and tricks. 

Kile: Yeah. Well, I think fundamentally as a pragmatist, do what you're motivated to do, first, because you don't want to hit a wall. And like, ugh I know I should do this meditation, but I really don't want to do meditation. So, if you don't want to do meditations then you don't have to at this stage, like go with the low-hanging fruit, and then when you're feeling enough strength, or clarity, or curiosity, right? Or sense of that creativity, which takes some risk taking, then do the opposite of what you would normally do. If you're a very intellectualized person, then certainly there's benefit to going into more of the experiential, emotional realm, and vice versa. We don't often talk about the vice versa. But, you know, part of this expansion of our awareness and the human experience is to really get the full range of what we can experience in life and do with respect, and doing that mindfully. So, I think that it depends on how you want to approach it, because there are so many different- it's always important and this is true in therapy, you know, to give people choice, that sense of agency and freedom-internal locus of control- All of this is important to our healing and transformation process. So, you know, with there being choices throughout the journey. This is a book I hope too that if you in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, you go through it again, you're going to have other things pop up for you. You're gonna have surprises along the way and that's just how life unfolds. So that was my hope to bring that in. 

Mary: Yeah, so it sounds like this is something that we can continue to go back to. Especially different, maybe different periods of our lives. After maybe some significant transitions in our lives to use this as a tool to integrate those new experiences. 

Kile: And to check in with ourselves about where am I now? Oh, what? But standing out this just so much that I pack into the book. I know if I revisit it next year, it's going to be different for me, in my own reading as the author, even, right? And that's part of I think the fun part of reflection and the life journey is just seeing how we change and grow and how we respond to our environment in different ways than we once did. There's a part in Jungian Depth Psychology called amplification, a process of amplification where we amplify parts of ourselves that we’re working on or that we're exploring or that we need to heal by engaging with art, stories, film for me, and that process is a creative and engaging one, but what pops out if we watch Lord of the Rings, like a million times. What pops out when we have a ten-year gap before watching it again is going to be different if we're really engaging with that film for example or that book. So- so this is one of the things to know you're not the book’s, a thick book. It's not written to remember all of it or to get all the concepts or theories or anything like that. There’s no quiz, but what will stand out to you is meant to stand out to you.  

Mary: Right, right, and it's just like in our psychedelic journeys, right? And what is really some of the pieces are going to be pretty obvious and clear and sometimes it's going to take some time to unravel or even notice maybe some more subtle messages that we may actually receive over time or, you know, through our many journeys. So, the- in the final arch, you also talked about, right? -The, the power or rather the responsibility of this knowledge and responsibility to move towards goodness, and it really reminded me of Braiding Sweet Grass. And of the gift economy, that now that we receive this gift of learning about ourselves, how do we return this gift back into the world? You know, what do we do with it and in reading Sweet Grass since it was in reference to the sacred reciprocity. So I kind of really felt that vibe here and I don't know if that's something you felt as well when you were thinking about when you were writing this part, but I would love for you to share more, more about that. 

Kile: It’s funny because at least in how the hero's journey or Joseph Campbell's work has been talked about in the West for personal development since his time, one of the main criticisms has been that it's very individualistic. It’s a bit of a surprising criticism for me because I never write it as such. Yeah, you have the hero but the hero's never alone. There are many allies, foils, other people like there's such richness and the community like the whole point of most mythologies and the hero's journey of that structure is about giving back to the community and protecting the community. So, I thought this would be a nice way of kind of, really fleshing out. Like what are our gifts? What did we learn in this journey? What can we bring back? And it's really not just a like a one-for-one exchange just like this is the amplification. This is a multiplication of the healing that we really do hope for in the world. It's not automatic. It's not through, just our individual healing our individual journeys, individual therapy. I think this is the bridge that a lot of us have hoped for, from the individual personal to the collective. And if we do that work with intention and with caring, it's not about being perfect. Then we can really within our sphere of influence, which is often times bigger than we realize, make a difference.  

Mary: Yes, yes. Thank you for bringing that up. It's something that's been really important to me is, is doing the community work, right? Of really taking the gifts that I've received from CIIS, from these different trainings that aren’t right aren't accessible to most people. And so, and so how, how do I bring that forward? And this is one example of you bringing it forward to the community by having these teachings accessible while encouraging to keep kind of that cycle as you learn. Right. Continue to move that forward. It's kind of like sometimes when we read a good book you like you can gift it to a friend like, oh you gotta read this. [Kile: Yes!] No barriers. Here it is, right?! That really touches me in terms of coming back, coming back to community, continuing this work so that other folks could feel it and feel it and, you know, and it'll be integrated as well. So, we are almost towards the end of our time and I'm curious about your own process. If you- if you maybe -a couple questions, but one is were there any activities that really moved you and your kind of towards the end of your book. Are there any ones that really maybe continue to stand out for you? 

Kile: I mean, the stuff on creativity and taking that risk was very personal and there was a lot that as I was writing this, especially during the pandemic I was like, oof…am I ready for this next phase of it being out there? And kind of like a child, my child going off to college, like, what how are other people going to treat my child? What are they going to think? But it was a good process that it was a vulnerability to experience. I knew it was always important to write about the shadow. So, one of the most fun activities for me to write about was creating this collection of like elements of the shadow that were throughout the entire book that I was hinting at and but not speaking directly to. And finally, it was the moment where I could kind of open the doors, like look at all this, like stuff that that we need to think about or to explore that we weren't able to like, how do we bring in the shadow throughout this entire journey and process and bringing some joy to that, as well as compassion and vulnerability. This shadow work is always vulnerable. 

Mary: Right..right. And what I, and one of- one of the archs you had mentioned, you know, in terms of our shadow work, the importance of looking back towards our ancestors and really bringing that bringing that forward. How- you know, no matter how ugly or how scary it is, it is so important to look at and in that piece of collective- our collective unconscious. And so, I really appreciated that piece. So often right in individual therapy we may, you know, we may look at one generation back, but we're not looking at maybe four or seven, you know generations if we and how that still is stored in our bodies and still stored in the way that we move in the world. 

Kile: Absolutely. And really recognizing that each generation back is an exponential increase in our number of ancestors. And the number of experiences. Good bad, ugly, everything in between too. So, there's a lot there, but you know that's part of the mystery too that is the very fact that we can be here with technology. Having this conversation, all the countless ancestors and random experiences that had to happen for this to occur is mind-blowing. So, every now and then just pausing and thinking about that is kind of fun. 

Mary: Yeah, and that's something I think you really highlight, right? In the book of just the mysteries around us and really staying kind of present in that there's so much that we don't know about our bodies...about the universe. And so, maintaining that I guess would be that curiosity. And also, the- the I’m not quite getting the word but just the- awe. 

Kile: Yeah.  

Mary: Right? I think it’s the awe. Right, right... Okay, so I’m wondering if there are maybe some themes that you -that we didn’t touch on that, that would be helpful to wrap, wrap up around. We just have a few minutes left. 

Kile: I think we covered so much, you know? One of the joys for me, as a writer for this book now being out is, I've gotten messages from people who are reading it and doing exercises and just all the things that are coming up for them and that that really is just so enriching for me to hear. And I'm always so curious about people's reactions and what they're learning from the experience. And so, I just want to express that gratitude of being able to be at this phase and to learn from others.  

Mary: Hmm. It sounds like not only praise of being in this phase, but also really, like you said earlier, being in this-this place of vulnerability and taking on and this challenge. And so Kile, I want, I want to thank you, but also thank all the people around you that supported this process and your ancestors and your family that had to give these pieces and continue to help you grow. And explore it. The shadow and these really things for me that are a little more challenging. So, I really appreciate having this challenge myself. 

Kile: Absolutely. This is never alone. Right?  

Mary: And that's right. And so, I'm wondering for folks who may want to continue to learn more about you or, you know, want to dive deeper into this process. If you have any suggestions of where to look or what to keep up with. 

Kile: You know, the book distills a lot of the work that I try to do, depth-oriented work in my private practice. So, if people are interested and they're in California and in kind of having some guidance in this process, then I'm happy working with people as one ot the honors of my career, and my life to do that. So, my website is at existentialexploration.org, but otherwise, you know, hopefully when things open up, I'll be able to be at some of the community events and be able to meet people in person. I love of just getting to know folks. 

Mary: Wonderful. Thank you so much for this time together. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

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