Kate Johnson: On Radical Friendship in an Unjust World
The divides we experience within us and between us are not only a threat to our physical and emotional health—they are also the weapons and the outcomes of structural oppression. Meditation teacher and author Kate Johnson believes that through wise relationships it is possible to transform the barriers created by societal injustice.
In this episode, licensed psychologist and CIIS faculty Elizabeth Markle has a conversation with Kate about her latest book, Radical Friendship, in which she illuminates seven strategies to help us embody our deepest values in our relationships and how to show up for each other’s liberation.
This episode contains explicit language. It was recorded during a live online event on September 15th, 2021. Access the transcript below.
Many of the topics discussed on our podcast have the potential to bring up feelings and emotional responses. We hope that each episode provides opportunities for growth, and that our listeners will use them as a starting point for further introspection and growth.
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transcript
[Cheerful theme music begins]
This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land.
The divides we experience within us and between us are not only a threat to our physical and emotional health—they are also the weapons and the outcomes of structural oppression. Meditation teacher and author Kate Johnson believes that through wise relationships it is possible to transform the barriers created by societal injustice. In this episode, licensed psychologist and CIIS faculty Elizabeth Markle has a conversation with Kate about her latest book, Radical Friendship, in which she illuminates seven strategies to help us embody our deepest values in our relationships and how to show up for each other’s liberation.
This episode was recorded during a live online event on September 15th, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.
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Elizabeth: Hi Kate, thank you for being here with us today.
Kate: My pleasure. Thank you.
Elizabeth: Yeah, well, I had so much fun reading your book. It looks like this, in case anybody hasn't seen it yet, and I'm so excited to just talk and experience with you today. I wonder if you want to just take a little time to introduce yourself and your path and how you got interested in friendship.
Kate: Okay, cool. First of all, it's delightful. It never gets old, seeing someone hold up a copy of my book [laughs] and the little dog-eared corner was beautiful to see too. Yeah, it's good to be here. In terms of my path, I would say, you know, my interest in mindfulness, although I didn't know it was called that really, I began early in my life as a dancer, that there's something about experiencing the synchronization that can happen, you know, with mind and heart and body and music and in space with other people. And I feel like those are my first conscious spiritual experiences. My first spiritual practices that could, you know, that I knew reliably could help me connect with myself, and with other people and the world around me. And then I was always really interested in formal spiritual practices too. And I was drawn to probably every religion, but in particular, Asian Buddhist traditions really spoke to me, especially the art and iconography of Tibetan Buddhism, I think was when I first kind of really, you know, felt drawn or called to that path.
I, through dance, made my way into yoga also, so I was, you know, working with embodied practices as a way to gather and collect my mind and in a way that was increasingly less about what it looked like and more about what it felt like. And that shift felt really important in terms of turning towards the development of that, you know, my inner life. And at some point, through yoga, I became interested in meditation. So, while I'd been curious about Buddhist art, Buddhist philosophy, I was reading, you know, sacred text. It wasn't until you know, I moved a lot, a lot, a lot. And then suddenly I was ready to be still in meditation after, you know, some time in yoga practice. And that turn had to do with being aware of the presence of suffering in my life and the real promise, I think, that the Buddhist teachings that you know, in every life, there is both suffering and liberation and that we can actually cultivate liberation through a meditation practice, which I came to understand over time was, you know, that practicing it was the key, that I couldn't just read about it. I had to, you know, do it.
And so, the way into friendship from that, I mean, you know, it wasn't, it was a winding road, but I think, for me, the connection between meditation and the Buddhist teachings on spiritual friendship emerged, from an understanding that much of the suffering or discomfort I experienced in the world was actually relational, that I discovered it in my ability or inability to connect with, you know, the people that I was practicing with in my meditation centers, in my ability or inability to connect with the students I was teaching, with, you know, my neighbors and that also a good portion of my suffering I experienced was systemic in nature, that many of the heartaches that I’d come to the meditation cushion to heal from actually came out of experiencing systemic oppression or participating in ways that I didn't, I didn't understand or didn't, didn't mean to. And so, there's something about the Buddhist teaching on spiritual friendship that I learned could speak to all those levels of experience, you know, that individual cultivation of the mind and heart, the ability to cultivate the space between individuals and intimate relationship. And also, I think, to understand how we might engage more wakefully in communities and societies and engaging with the systems that we seem to participate in even though no one really wants them.
Elizabeth: Thank you for walking us through that journey. You know, as I prepared for this conversation, I started sort of highlighting and underlining and then I just started copying quotes from your book that I loved. And the very first sentence says, “this book is a book about finding your freedom, finding your people, and the possibility that these are actually two parts of one in the same spiritual path.” And the way that you draw parallels between mindfulness and meditation and friendship, just really, is really moving to me. I wonder if you could speak a little bit about that. How is meditation related to friendship and as you so beautifully put it, making friends with yourself?
Kate: Yeah, I think that's it. That was something that a teacher proposed to me early on and, you know, my practice that meditation is an activity of making friends with yourself. And I think part of why I said in the book that it sounded kind of hokey to me at first, I think part of the reason why is that I had a misunderstanding of what friendship actually can be and can do. So, I thought, when someone said meditation is making friends with yourself, I thought it was like, you know, okay, like take myself to get my nails done, you know, hanging out with myself in this case, you know, watching a movie with myself, you know what I mean? And not that those activities are bad or wrong or even harmful, right? But I didn't, I didn't see how they could be transformative. And I think, the more that I learned about what, what I think the Buddha meant by friendship, the more profound and liberatory that proposition was, you know, but that the ability to- that the practice of spending time in intentional relationship with my own mind and heart and body, that there is actually- that's a relationship that can grow and deepen over time and can really enrich my life.
Elizabeth: Mmm-hmm.
Kate: And there's also something about like knowing, yeah, taking the time to really get to know ourselves, you know, in a moment-to-moment way and to be in a relationship that is non-judgmental that is, you know, more profound than it even sounds.
Elizabeth: Yeah, as you talk, I'm reminded of Esther Perel, you mentioned her.
Kate: Oh, totally, she's amazing.
Elizabeth: Isn't she great?
Kate: Also, such a fashionable person. I feel like, every time I see her out, that I'm like “work!”
Elizabeth: Well, one of my favorite quotes of hers, she says something like- this is probably not exact: she says, “love is a verb. It is not a state of permanent enthusiasm.” [Kate: Mmm.] And as you talk about friendship with oneself or others not being about like, you know, one big night out for drinks or you know, always being in a state of perpetual ease and lightness. I really appreciate what mindfulness can do in terms of orienting us to connectivity, and friendship, and even love being something actually much deeper than that.
Kate: Mmm. I love that. That's beautiful. That's a beautiful statement. And yeah, I think there's something there, if the verb...if I had to pick a verb to describe that state of friendship, as I think it relates to the meditation practice, I would think it would be something like ‘to stay.’
Elizabeth: Oh, yeah, I think later in your book, you say something like friendship is not an identity. It's a, it's an action. Is that it? Am I getting that right?
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think in that part of the book, I was talking a little bit about the- I was contrasting the activity of friendship, or what I'm thinking about is radical friendship with the activity of allyship and in particular, how we were working with it in meditation centers, as we were starting to become increasingly excited about and trying to participate in the social and environmental justice movements that we seek and blossoming and coming into fruition all around us. So, I think, over the last, I don't know how many years, you know, like 10 years certainly, I mean there were always been pockets of contemplative practitioners who have been deeply socially engaged. But I don't know about you, it seems to me like there's been a real blossoming of like, an understanding of like the- what I feel is kind of imperative towards societal engagement, if we are working with mindfulness and compassion and wisdom in our, in our, in our inner life. And, and even a hope that it's actually possible to engage and to make change happen as contemplative practitioners, and as, as spiritual practitioners who are engaging together, and I think this is really exciting because I feel like there was a time that came before that where it was just you know, the world can feel like so much and it can be overwhelming and there's this kind of vibe of like, well, there's so much to do. I can't do everything. I'm just going to get, I'm just going to get this together. And that's my piece and I'm that's, that's, that's what I can handle. Right?
So, in that shift, I think there were a lot of folks asking the question of how can I be an ally? That they, you know, practitioners were seeing movements in which people who had some of these characteristics that they didn't share, you know, were leading the way and societal transformation and saying, like, well, how can I be a part of this? How can I be an ally? And that there was still, there's something about allyship, that lends itself towards identification. And even the phrase, ‘I am an ally’ like and there's a certain- there's, there's benefits of that identification. Like it feels like a hard stance and it's something we can take pride in. And it's something that can provide a certain amount of direction or orientation as we navigate, you know, an experience and how to show up for one when it’s liberation. But the problem with the identity of an ally is that when it's challenged, that's where we see fragility come up a lot in relationship, right? Like, so if I think of myself as an ally and someone brings to me a way in which I've caused harm or, you know, participated in, you know, their oppression in a way that I didn't mean to; suddenly, you know, I lose it because of that but what I have is this, this identity, so I really liked thinking of friendship as yeah, an action activity as Esther Perel also talks about and that there's something actionable in it, and there is something that somehow I think is more durable than this identification with the label of allyship.
Elizabeth: There’s so much in all of this, so many directions I want to go. But, you know, it occurs to me that just like, talking about meditation is one thing and practicing it is another, there may be a way we can sort of directly experience what we're talking about here. If there's something you might guide us in. But before we do that, would you be up for defining radical friendship? That's the title of your book. I'm so curious about sort of how you hold that.
Kate: Yeah, so the word that the Buddha, the phrase that the Buddha used in the text that I structured the book Radical Friendship around is “Kalyana Mitta”. And it means “spiritual friendship”, which is, as I understand it, the activity of showing up for liberation with mine and yours, right? So, and I called the book Radical Friendship in part, because I think that application of spiritual friendship in these times is a radical proposition, you know, but you know, in a world that so values effort towards material, material reward and transactional relationship; the idea that we would spend time enriching our own spiritual lives and enriching our lives together in relationships that are not transactional, but that are based on our common desire to be free. That, that seemed, there seemed to be like very little more radical than that. And that when we think about the meaning of the word ‘radical’ and other pertaining to the root, there is also this hope or aspiration that that kind of relationship could start to uproot the deeply rooted tendencies that keep us from being free. So that's, that's how I- it's not a short definition, but that’s how I define it.
Elizabeth: No, that’s so great. You wrote, “friendship is the medicine for the isolation we often feel within supremacist societies.” I don't know. You said it pretty clearly.
Kate: Yeah, I think so. I hope so.
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Kate: When I referred to isolation and supremacy, I was speaking, you know, specifically about the really clear and beautiful framework that Tema Okun and Kenneth Jones described in their Dismantling Racism workbook. It's kind of a classic text in, you know, diversity education and equity education and, and they talk about the characteristics of white supremacy culture, isolation being one of them. And they're not the first, I think about Hannah Arendt in The Origins of Totalitarianism talks about the weight, the relationship between fascism and terror and isolation and loneliness. Yeah, and so, I think it's worth a shot. You know, I guess I feel like that if it's true and it seems to be true that living in a unjust world, meaning living in a world where we that is, you know, deeply impacted by, you know, white supremacy and heteropatriarchy and ableism, and so many of the other systems of oppression based on identity or characteristic that we were all impacted by; if it's true that those systems impact our relationship with ourselves, which I know in my own experience and I'm sure many of us can relate, if they impact our relationships with each other, which I've also experienced, you know, both with the sense of separation that I feel with people who I perceive to be different from me. And also, the way that you know, harm can happen out of those perceptions and the kind of associations that have been layered into them by societal training. That's all true. Then it would seem to me that spending time working on healing relationship could be part of the solution and I don't think it's the whole thing. Like, I think, you know, there's obviously more work to be done, but I was just- I have, I haven't received my copy yet, but I know Tarana Burke’s book Unbound just came out and I was like scrolling through Instagram and saw some words from her that were something about, you know, the thing that defines movement is that it moves, and in order to move together, we have to have some kind of- so that's her words and my senses, like in order to move together, we have to have like strong enough bonds, where we can withstand the changing experience and the different obstacles we might face as we navigate our way to greater liberation for everyone.
Elizabeth: Yeah. I-
Kate: I just, I think it's not the, not the only solution, but a place worth investing our time and energy.
Elizabeth: Right. And not sort of a side effect or a, you said, not a detour or a roadside decoration on the journey to liberation, but really essential to the whole path.
Kate: Mmmhmm. Yeah, and you know, there have been a lot of- I mean, we just had like the Met Gala, there were a lot of, you know, thoughts, you know, on the internet today about the like optics of like diversity and inclusion and performativity of kind of liberative ideology and politics. Yeah, and, you know, there is something to be said for representation, I think, you know, performance of, you know, social justice isn't the worst thing in the world. However, yeah, that there's, there's something deeper and more intimate available to us and I like, I like reminding myself by like see- being in relationships where I'm reminded that's actually possible, that it's possible to do more than just like, you know, representation and diversity optics that it's possible to actually be in like deep transformative healing relationship and maybe that that's...being inside of those relationships. Yeah. Is it is its own kind of reward, you know, is its own kind of, I guess what I'm saying is there's the like long goal freedom, in terms of society where we are all free to be who we actually are and to express ourselves, you know, with our words and our bodies, and our movements, and our actions in the way that feels like the best to us and where we are, no one takes more than they need and like there's, there's like this, there's like the long goal on terms of what collective liberation looks like.
And then I think there's these relationships that we can build with each other where it's possible to embody in these like smaller units what it might feel like and be like to be free all together. And I think that's really important for our own sustainability that we can feel, we can feel what that might be like, that feeling can be our North Star as we're navigating these kind of larger structural things, you know, to be able to tap into. Does it feel like that frequency there that I know of, as what it, what it feels like to be free with another person? Yeah, yeah, and those relationships can provide like a sense of rest, and ease and respite from a world that doesn't always feel that way. And it's hard. It's, it's hard to remember that that's possible. One, you know, maybe not for everybody. But for me, sometimes it’s hard to remember that's possible. And it's and it's, it is not always easy to make time to put energy towards kind of building and cultivating those kinds of relationships in my life because they- they're not fast and they don't pay any money, and they're just- [Elizabeth: Right, right.] But, but I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for the spaces I have like that in my life. I feel like they, they saved my life.
Elizabeth: Thank you for sharing that. I wonder how you feel about guiding us in some short, just a few moments, whether it's an activity or a mindfulness that would help us sort of be present to all that we’re speaking about.
Kate: Mhm, okay. Yes, I can do that. We can do, let's say just about a five-minute practice and maybe for this, you know, let's focus on this quality of making friends with, with ourselves, even though I don't think that's the whole of the, the practice. I think it's a good place to kind of land and experience. So, for those of you who are listening and are able to, you know, not in your car, but if it's possible to just bring your body into a position where you feel fairly comfortable being still for a few moments. You can close your eyes if you like or keep- just softly focus them to the space in front of you and take a couple of deeper breaths, if that’s available to you, if it feels good to your body or do something else that helps you to feel settled and to start to shift your attention from outside and the world of ideas and inside to the world of feeling.
And as you do this, deeper breathing or settling in some way, just like to invite you to reflect on a quality that comes up for you, that's important to you when you think of a friend and what a friend does. Could be something like generosity, or patience, or humor. Warmth, tenderness. Honesty. And then, allow that quality to kind of hang in the background of your mind. And for another moment or two, we’ll bring to the foreground of our experience some like sensory experience that feels neutral or kind of on the good side of neutral. So, some people like to feel the sensation of breath coming and going or could be the feeling of your hands resting, your feet on the floor or something that feels- that you can feel in your body that feels kind of easeful to pay attention to.
And see if you can invite your awareness to rest there and consider this sensation to be like a friend that is helping you to connect with this moment. Might notice shifting sensations of pressure or temperature. Fullness, relaxation. Tingling, pulsing. That means you’re knowing the felt sense of your body in this place, your changing experience. Allow that sensation to gather and unify, magnetize your attention and help it rest in the here and now. And if you can, bringing in some appreciation for this capacity to feel.
And now remembering the quality of friendship that you called up earlier in this meditation. See if there's a way you can bring that quality into your relationship with this anchor body sensation that you're paying attention to now. Just letting it be an inquiry. What is it like to be with my breath in a way that is kind, generous, gentle? So that we're practicing not only what we're paying attention to, but how we're paying attention. And if there's any moment in which you connected with that, a feeling that felt like friendship. Take a moment to reflect on that and stabilize that. And if you didn't, take a moment to connect with your wholehearted wish to, and your effort to experience that, it’s worth feeling good about also. And in a moment, I'll ring the bell to just close that little practice.
Elizabeth: Thank you.
Kate: Thank you for the invitation. I always like to take a moment to pause.
Elizabeth: Yeah, and wonderful to sort of make real or to really get some direct contact with what we're talking about here. It really occurred for me as an invitation to befriend what was happening in me. And one thing I can share is that you know, as soon as I intended to put my attention on something neutral to positive. Or intended to call up a really warm generous feeling quality, I was also present to all the other kinds of feeling qualities that, that show up. It was sort of like the whole crowd showed up along with my desire to be friendly.
Kate: That happens. [Elizabeth: Yeah.] It's like, whoa, she's paying attention, you know. [both laugh] Yeah. It's also true, you know, we often talk about in these heart practices, they work on several different levels. So, one is this quality of cultivation, right? Where we’re intending to draw up a certain quality of warmth and friendliness or you know, I invited you to choose. What is the quality of friendship that is important to you and to start to bring it into your relationship with your own body. That activity often also brings in a level of what we sometimes refer to as purification.
So, which is kind of, you know, Buddhist euphemism for like a shit storm. Just like, it became, you know, it's a detox really and that the intention to bring forward what is lovely and what is kind and what is friendly often knocks loose or brings our awareness to everything that’s not that quality and the instruction as I often understood it is just to know that that's present. And we can know that, you know, try to both center the quality that we're hoping to cultivate but not to push away whatever else is there and that it is also having its own evolution. You know that there is a way of turning towards, you know, if in a meditation on friendliness, you know, self-judgment arises or the sense of like I don't, I'm not worthy of this experience or sometimes it shows up as like, I hate this teacher. What are we doing here now, you know that, you can, you know, you can turn towards those experiences with a sense of compassion, you know, and move into a more of a compassion practice in that way. Or it's possible to just, like, let them arise and let them, let them pass, and both are good.
Elizabeth: Yeah, so along with that invitation to turn towards our inner experiences with compassion, in your writing, you really, you know, invite or compel us to turn towards each other with compassion. Even when we are vexed, disturbed, unhappy, read the wrong way etc.; and, you know, a question that really kept coming up for me is about discernment. And, and when we choose to stay and to lean in and to turn towards and to include. And when there is, when discernment calls for some sort of boundary or some sort of firmness that says, ‘this is okay and that's not’, can you speak about that a little bit?
Kate: Yeah. Yeah, thanks for that. I feel like it's a- As I was writing, I, for every statement that I made about friendship and how we might practice it, there was running my mind, like, except in this case, you know, unless this, you know, and I could have, I could have made a list for every single one. I think, you know, one layer of discernment has to do with our own capacity and it's very related to, you know, what it is to be a friend to ourselves. Maybe even, maybe even first, you know, like, what is my capacity to actually show up in this relationship now? And that's made up of lots of different components. Right? Like it's do I have time for this, do I have energy for this, you know, depression is tiring, you know, living in an unjust world is really tiring and sometimes you just do not have the energy and then do I have the passion for this? You know, which is why it really to be in some kind of ongoing relationship, right? Because that, that can often, that can often help us find the energy and find the time and find the quality of attention that we need to say. Like, okay. I have the capacity here, but I think that's one level of discernment, you know, am I- can I show up for this right now and just to be able to be honest about that: can I show up for it, how much of it can I show up for?
And then, yeah, I think there's the level of discernment that comes with, you know, what's happening for this other person. What's happening in the space between us? I love that you use the word ‘vexed’, all manner of vexation, you know, so there's that, the interpersonal level of you know, sometimes I find that I think that I'm, I'm you know, vexed, irritated and then I realized like, oh, I'm actually not like this other person is, who’s irritated and I'm just here and that I don't actually have to get on that ride with them, you know, and that's- that can be a loving action too, to be like, I love you my friend. I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not going to go on this ride with you right now. You know or is this like a repeated boundary violation where we can no longer trust a person to actually keep themselves and us safe in relationship. So, they know their level of discernment kind of around what's the interpersonal dynamic here?
And then a third layer that I think I point to in the book as well around: is this suffering or misalignment or you know, irritation that I'm having with this person, you know, is there a systemic root that I should be paying attention to here. And that's often the part that I feel is the least immediately apparent or visible for me. And it seems that in, you know, oftentimes in communities, systemic or institutional, or societal dysfunction shows up, is experienced as like an interpersonal issue. And there's not always an interpersonal solution to those kinds of those kinds of challenges or sources of vexation, you know, they actually have to come from the kind of larger institutional kind of frame. I mean, there's things that you can do interpersonally for sure, but it's- they're going to- those rubs are going to continue to come up unless there's a structure that can actually hold, you know, real free relationships. So yeah. Those are the- that's where discernment comes up for me.
Elizabeth: I love that you mention structures that can hold. And I don't know if I shared about this when we spoke earlier, but I live in a community of eight adults. We're a cooperative home. It's an intentional community and we live in a big house, and we all have our own bedrooms, but we share food and meals and chores and space. And as you can imagine, in a pandemic, we have to make a ton of agreements and conflict is abundant And something, you wrote, you said, “when we fear conflict in our relationships, it's usually because we don't have a process in place to meet and manage this conflict.” And that really resonated for me. That conflict is scary when it’s unheld or unbounded or there isn't sort of a structure to fall back in and I'm really interested in your thoughts about what healthy and effective structures are? Like who's doing that well?
Kate: To hold conflict?
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah, first of all, I want to say that your housing situation sounds really awesome and really brave. And I mean I've had like less intentional community experiences before. And then after that, I lived alone.
Elizabeth: It’s a common path! [both laugh]
Kate: It is. I was like, “aaand studio apartment.” So, I just love that you're like sticking in it, and I'm sure that, you know, you have a lot of wisdom on this too. I, there's a couple things that come to mind. One comes out of the Buddhist world, which is the Thich Nhat Hanh Order of Interbeing. And I'm not ordained in that tradition, although I really admire it and I learn a lot from people who are, but there's some practices that I picked up from, like reading his writing about just, taking regular time to address, whatever kind of conflicts may have arisen, to have a designated time of the week where that is possible. There's this really sweet letter, kind of template that he gives in one book. I can't remember exactly which one- oh I think it's hmmm, I think it’s called Reconciliation? Reconciliation: Healing the Child Within. I think something like that, but he offers a letter template that you're supposed to give to someone when they've angered you, which is, it's like, “dear beloved. Please help me,” you know, “I have anger against you. Anger is arising in me. Can we discuss this on Friday at 4:30?” You know, I, you know, but it's this- I think what strikes me is so sweet about it is one, it's like beloved, you know, two, I need your help. Like, you know, this is coming up in a space between us. Like, can you love me enough? Even in this moment of, you know, feeling abstraction in my heart towards you to help me work through this together. So, I think that sounds pretty good. And I haven't lived in that community, but I've tried it in, in my, like, romantic partnership. I've tried it with friends. Yeah. I've adapted the template so it’s authentic to me, but I think that's a, I guess what I'm taking from that is this- yeah, including when we have a dedicated relationship with someone to like include them in our process when the relationship can hold that. I learned- I mean, I feel like the Bay Area is such a...like so rich with resources around conflict, you know, managing conflict, and accountability processes. I feel like I learned a lot from the Bay Area Transformative Justice Collective, Collective Coalition? Me and my guesses work-
Elizabeth: Collective. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah, just around the idea that the best time to manage conflict is actually before conflict arises and that to have people who we trust, who can support us. Whether we are the person who has been harmed or whether the person who has caused harm that we're going to need support and that sometimes in conflict, we've done both, you know. So again, how can we like break out of the isolation of doing it on my own? Of just doing it with you and actually include this as like a community experience and be willing to participate, you know. To allow people to support us, even when we've hurt somebody and didn't mean to and to start to cultivate the kinds of relationships where we could continue to support, you know, there are people who we can support, even if they have caused harm, right? And that we could continue to- part of our role there might be to not lose sight of their inherent worthiness and their humanity even as we come together to and some kind of agreed upon process to remediate that harm. In my Buddhist meditation communities, we have an ethics committee where people can come when they have like a grievance or a, you know, experienced a conflict in some way. And they work okay for like the big ones, you know, and they were okay for like when there's like a, like clear ethical violation. They don't work as well for like bad vibes and you know, light shade and like things like that, that also, you know, subtle power plays, that also happen. So, what I've noticed people doing just informally in those communities is just asking each other, you know say like hey, can we have a ‘clearing’ and like that's become kind of shorthand for, you know, there's something there's something clouding the air between us. Like, can we air it out a little bit? Can we bring it out into the open? So there's a couple of things that come to mind, but I feel like that's an area that I actually- in this book, I say, you know, we should do this and I offer some examples but I feel like that's a whole area of expertise and practice that 'd love to develop more and love to learn more about and I don't think I'm an expert there.
Elizabeth: Well, you and me both. Yeah, you know, you mentioned something about addressing harm when harm has been done, and in your book there's a whole chapter on sort of not looking down on each other and I think the quote was “no one enters violence for the first time by committing it.” And I just wonder sort of in the era of call-outs and cancels and, you know, really taking a stand for harm that has been done. How do we, in a mindful and wise and discerning way, hold the dignity of the human behind it as well? Do you have words for us on that?
Kate: Yeah. Well, first, I want to say that that passage was just so lovely. It isn’t mine. It was I think Mariame Kaba quoting Shira Hassan on adrienne maree brown's podcast. [Elizabeth: Okay.] But it was, it was, it was potent enough through all that telephone that I was like, I really want to include this in the book. Yeah, but this question of how to hold- can you say it again? Because you said it so beautifully, and I want to hear it.
Elizabeth: Let's see if I can recreate it. It's something like: while being a clear stand for addressing harm that is done, you also really advocate for not looking down [Kate: Yeah.] on those who may have perpetuated harm and I just wonder, if you could speak to some of the, the discernment around that.
Kate: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, well, In this chapter I spoke specifically about the kinds of like sexual misconduct and abuse of power that we've seen in spiritual communities. And I think, maybe in communities broadly, you know, maybe in organization's broadly, you know, maybe this is a part of what, you know, how these like systems of oppression manifest in, you know, kind of abuse of power and disrespect of bodies. And yeah, I think the Buddhist world has been kind of rocked over the past- it- there- it goes in cycles but there was definitely a cycle over the past several years of revelations around like sexual misconduct and harm that had happened in these communities. And these are, I think most people would acknowledge by and large communities that are also fairly conflict averse, you know, and in part because they are not strong, although I think there are getting there are possibilities in their, their committees that are working towards isn't getting stronger, right? But strong ways of addressing and supporting conflict. And so there can be this not doing anything about it until it's like so egregious. Because there's so much fear about, you know, what happens when we get into the unknown territory of trying to, trying to remediate these more- this kind of harm.
Something that's kind of weird that happens sometimes when a person, especially a leader, abuses their power and harms someone who is a student or junior teacher is that the community can kind of, can kind of almost act as if that leader can't, can't be held accountable because what they've done is so terrible and to face it would be so harsh. There's this kind of like, kind of padding or- and some of that is done through, you know, “aww but this person has such good intentions” or “look at all the other amazing things that they've done” or, you know, “such a nice person”, you know what I mean? Like, they helped me this one time. I think part of what it means not to look down on someone is to assert that they can take responsibility and be accountable for their actions. And to know that doesn't mean that this is a person who is disposable, but it does mean that, you know, they might need to be removed from power. It does mean they might need to be removed from the community for a period of time and that they, they can- we can allow them to have dignity in that experience. But we can also trust that they are capable of meeting and responding to the circumstances that they put in motion and that respecting them and not looking down on them is allowing them to show up and be called into accountability. I think.
Elizabeth: I love that. That's fascinating. Yeah, thanks for walking through that, in some ways protecting someone or sort of like overly enabling fragility is a way of looking down on someone of saying, “we don't think they can handle it” or that they, you know, “it's too much for them to grapple with the consequences of their behavior.” And that perpetuates all kinds of inequities within a community. Right?
Kate: “Our community can't handle it. We need this leader”, you know, and just be like, “oh actually, I think we're, we're strong enough to face the truth together,” you know, we're strong enough to, you know. And that we must, you know, and if the community can't stay together or if the leader can't, you know, recover, you know, their position after we face the reality together, then then it's okay, actually, to let those things go, you know, that something it may, it may mean that it's time for this particular, particular form to dissolve, you know, to go the way of every phenomenon, you know, condition, phenomenon is what I said that, you know, it has its own, it has its own dying process and that something else then has space to be born. Maybe something that kind of from the beginning, has some of these, these processes in place to respond before, before it becomes such an issue.
Elizabeth: Yeah. I'm so grateful that you just named the conflict aversion that can be so endemic to spiritual communities, especially spiritual gated communities. That's my favorite phrase of your whole book, it reminds me of sort of the Ivory Tower phenomenon in academia. This is sort of like the Enlightenment Tower or something else. And you also spoke to the way that with our families and sometimes with our close friends it used to be sort of common guidance to stay away from politics. Right? Don't talk about sex, or money, or religion, or politics with your family, and you really say, you know, I don't know if we can afford to do that anymore. And so, I wonder what guidance you have as the holidays approach in a few months here and current events are no less contentious for how to be- how do we be radical friends with those that we are in deep community and connection with but may have very, very different beliefs from?
Kate: Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's so hard. I feel like this is advanced practice, you know, but I do feel like depending on- here's the caveat, right? Depending on the nature of our relationship, with our family members, you know, if we're a very young person who's dependent on our family, you know, there might be reasons why we don't want to engage for our own health and well-being, you know, and if we have the kind of relationship that is fairly, you know, equal enough in power with family members. And if it, again, we have the capacity, I think it can be, it could be really transformative for us to start having these kinds of conversations and meaning like, you know, who did you vote for, you know, and why? And I say it's advanced practice because it can be so painful to deeply love someone and not understand their motives and feel misunderstood by them. And I don't think that it's the kind of conversation we can enter into over the holidays with the idea that by the end of the vacation we're going to solve it or like, you know, bring them over to, you know, the other side.
But I do think that, you know, so much of like the political tension in our country, you know, I would say in the world now is framed in terms of like a like a binary kind of party politics. And I think that that's a little bit of a smokescreen. I think often what we're actually talking about is fundamental human rights. What we're talking about stewardship of our natural resources. We're talking about things that are like, kind of- of the common good and so I think. That's one way to approach, you know, a conversation is to try to get underneath the kind of like hatred of the my side/your side which feels more like a, you know, like rallying behind a sports team than it does like, you know, adhering to a set of ethical guidelines that make sense, you know. Like it feels more like, we're in a “being in it to win it” as opposed to like, “what do we need to do, you know, on this planet to survive” and like how do we- how do we believe that we need to be towards, you know, other human beings and what- what can… yeah, that, you know, those kinds of like more grounded in our values.
And of course, it's going to be tricky because people are going to experience and express those values differently, but I feel like at least, we could have a different kind of conversation than like batting, you know, kind of bad facts back and forth. I think that it requires a lot of like both self-regulation and good boundaries sometimes to be in like, heated conversations like that. And so, to be able to also say, you know, “I really love you. I'm glad we talked about this for a little while. I think I need a break for a minute. Like, you know, do you want to like get some more pie. Or like go outside to have a snowball fight” or so, you know, like to titrate that experience with other kinds of relational experiences again, like without the idea that we're going to solve this time around and like to take good care of ourselves like that, you know, the holidays, if you have a meditation practice aren't the time to like, let go of it, if you're gonna be with your family.
But I think to remember, you know, in the tradition that I most experienced in like, Theravada Buddhism meditation tradition, we talk about Enlightenment, not as a sudden experience, but as a series of experiences that gradually weaken delusion, you know, and gradually kind of shake ignorance away. So that the image that is sometimes given is of a tree with a huge trunk where, you know, we have insights that are kind of little chops in this- in this big tree. It also reminds me of, there's a Bob Marley song that I love called “Small Acts,” you know, it's about that kind of same thing. And so, you know to be content that the conversation you might have with our auntie or uncle or cousin, you might be, you know, a small chop for them, not to be judgmental, but there are just- I think we have to just name that there are some views that are just like, not grounded in reality that- that folks are holding because our media has misled them because they're easily misled because they're scared, you know, like know. I don't think. Sometimes also, I've seen folks get into spaces where there's this, this desire to hold, you know, all these uses equal and we have to respect all views, like I don't- no, we don't have to respect the views that are like damaging to humanity. It's not, that's, I don't think that's something that we need to do. And so, to be content with the possibility that if we are talking with someone who is holding views that are harming themselves and harming other people, our conversation with them might be a small, you know, chop in that tree and that we have time, hopefully to be together and to loosen that up.
Elizabeth: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, that we're not obligated to blow up our relationships in order to stand for the one truth. But that small, incremental, compassionate, curious conversations may add up over time.
Kate: Yeah, I hope so and you know, like for safety, for health, there might be times where we need to step out of relationship, you know, but that- that we may also be able to step back in, you know hold open the possibility for that too. [Elizabeth: Yeah.] People change, you know, it is- you know, change is hard. And also, people do change. And I've certainly seen that with some of my, my longer family relationships.
Elizabeth: Wow. Kate, it's a joy talking with you, and I know we need to wrap up here. I'm wondering if there's anything that I haven't asked you about that you want to share, or even if you want to share the best way for folks to get their hands on your book?
Kate: Oh, yeah.
Elizabeth: Yeah, what's there for you?
Kate: I guess what’s there for me in terms of…I just- what's coming to me are just words of encouragement. Like, I once was in a meditation class with a teacher who said, “heed all these meditation instructions for how to work with our mind in this really specific way.” And then we were about to, he's about to hit the bell, so we could start and he finally- He said, “you can't do this wrong” and then it was just, it was, it was so great. It was like being off the hook, you know, like and that's kind of what I want to say in respect to these like, radical friendship practices. They're so much, like, there's so much to think about, there is so much awareness and intention. There's so much possibility for mistake and how we repair. And also, we know how to do this as humans. And there might be something to taking the attitude that you can't do this wrong and that whatever arises in your exploration of radical friendship practice can…you can mine that experience for deeper intimacy with your loved ones and for spiritual growth. So that's, that’s my word of encouragement there for this practice, it feels like a lot, you can't do it wrong. And in terms of finding me. I have a website. It's just katejohnson.com. There's, you know, we’re still in the launch. So, there's some events coming up, you know, throughout the next like several weeks, I think and that's a good way to get in touch with me too- my newsletter. You can sign up there if you want to just keep in touch.
Elizabeth: Thank you for that. Thank you for your encouragement, and your support for the infinite opportunities to begin again, in meditation and in friendship. Thank you for writing this book and thank you for being here with us today.
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