CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. Before we introduce this episode, a quick note from us - we are shifting to a monthly schedule, so you will see us pop up in your podcast feed on the first Thursday of each month going forward. 

In challenging times, it can be important to access a multitude of healing pathways, and we can use astrology as a supportive tool to understand both the current moment and access our personal and collective agency.

In this episode, Humanistic Astrologer, psychic medium, and author Jessica Lanyadoo is joined in an illuminating conversation with CIIS Associate Professor Sonya Shah on the astrology of these challenging times. Jessica discusses what’s happening in the stars right now and how to navigate through them while supporting your spiritual, emotional, and mental well-being.

This episode was recorded during a live event in San Francisco on March 13th, 2025. CIIS Public Programs members can watch a video of this talk on their member portal. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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Jessica Lanyadoo: Hey everyone.

Sonya Shah: Hey everyone. We were just joking about the throne chairs in the back. And how the lights are like. For two people who are in menopause, it's a, it's a thing. So if we just start sweating and shedding, you'll know why. Well, we're psyched to be here with Jessica.

Jessica: Yes.

Sonya: We're just going to start out with a little self intro. So I asked Jessica to just sort of do a little like, how are you feeling today? And just something sweet you want to say about yourself before we get started.

Jessica: Yeah, I'm just so excited we're doing this and I'm so grateful that you're all here and to have this conversation. I moved away from the Bay after 30 years, just a couple months ago. And so being back here has been really special and kind of sad because it's so wonderful in the Bay Area. And I've just been having, having like a really like a time and it's just, and to get to be in this spectacular space. Has anyone been in here before? It's like magical. If you haven't already looked up, please look at the ceiling. It's my dream ceiling. So if you wanted to buy me a house, this is what I'm looking for. Yeah. So that is, that's my day. How's your day?

Sonya: My day's been good. A little bit tired, but really feeling now energized by being here. I'm Sonya for everyone and my pronouns are she/her. And yeah, just happy to just be here and be with all of you and sort of see where we go.

Jessica: Yeah, I'm down. I'm down. Yeah. Also, I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention it's an eclipse. Venus is retrograde. Mercury's like almost retrograde. So it's like the feels are feelsy. It's like an emotional tender day. And I've been trying to not do this, but I'm going to tell you that I got on a bus today and was given the senior discount. And it really like was like a big emotional experience for me that I have compulsion to share with everyone. So yeah, it's an emotional time. So in the vein of a lunar eclipse, we're here to like be in the feels and release whatever we can. So yeah, let's let's invoke, let's invoke some of that.

Sonya: Thank you. So, before we sort of go into like the thing, which is like the time that we're in, I think for us and for people, you know, before I came here today, I talked to a couple of friends who follow your work and they said, Oh, what I really love is how practical she is. 

Jessica: Thank you.

Sonya: I love that. You know, I also listening to some of your work, you're so caring and you hold people so well in the process of talking about astrology and feelings and how we deal with things. So maybe if you could orient us to how you work with astrology and how you work with community.

Jessica: So something that might be a little surprising to hear is that I actually don't care about astrology that much. It's like my life's work, literally, but it's not the point. It's like, I, I like my car, but it's not the point. The point is where the car takes me and astrology is like that. It's like the way into the complexity and nuance of the human condition, the complexity and the nuance of our collective conditions. And then astrology is like genius at being like, OK, this is what's happening for how long and why and what you're supposed to get out of it. And here's what's hard for you. And here's where your resources are. It's just like it's amazing, like a like a trapper keeper, like a personal trapper keeper of like who you are and how you are and where you are. And so for me, the kind of like way that I use astrology as a humanistic astrologer, which I think is a very pragmatic approach to astrology. Is is to support myself and others to accept the moment in its complexity and from there to kind of unpack the best ways to engage with the moment, to meet the moment and and to develop the tools to cope when you get it wrong and to develop the tools to cope when you get it right. Because you'll get it wrong and you'll get it right. And they both have to be met. So that's, you know, for me, the astrology is again, it's it's it's the tool, but it's not the point. And so people in my personal life will notice I don't actually talk about astrology very much. But I it's like my view for the for how I perceive pretty much everything. So, yeah. 

Sonya: That's so orienting and grounding. Just before we get started, I guess another like little follow up question to that is, I think I've thought about this a bit and heard other people talk about it. But I think that sometimes people want astrology to be predictive because it's too unsettling to sit with the discomfort of the here and now and to be like, oh, I actually have to deal with what's going on. And then there's like, you know, all of the mythology around like, oh, it's that thing. So can you just say something about that piece of like the predictive versus the kind of grounding to the here and now and what you think about all of that?

Jessica: I'm so happy you're asking me this because there's so many layers of what I want to say about that. The first is that I think most of us turn to astrology because we're like, OK, this is scary or I don't know what to do or I don't want to get hurt or I don't want to fuck up. And so we're like, OK, let me find this tool to tell me how to not get hurt, not mess up, whatever it is. And so we basically are turning to an analytic tool, which is ultimately what astrology is. It's an analytic tool. People say like my astrology says and it's important to remember astrology says nothing. Astrologers say something. AI writes shit in the vein of astrologers on the Internet. Like, it's important to keep that stuff in mind. And so there's a way that we turn to it as a way to intellectualize or analyze our condition or our fears or our hopes or whatever it is. And related to that, it's like we separate emotionally, right? And when you separate emotionally from your own lived experience, astrology becomes a tool for compartmentalization, pathologizing yourself or other people, basically separating yourself from your lived experience. And that's when it stops helping and it starts being trite and starts hurting. And then the other thing is, and if you listen to my podcast, you will probably know this, that I, you know, it's like I'm an astrologer. So my prediction, that is the thing I do. And every year I do this year ahead forecasts where I'm like, OK, I'm going to talk about what's going to come up in the year ahead. And for 2025, I just I couldn't do it. I like I talked about it in therapy. I couldn't do it. I'm sorry, y’all. It's bad. And so I'm so sorry. And so I was like, OK, why can't I? Because I did it for 2020 and 2020, I don't know. You know, it wasn't great. And it's ultimately because I believe with every fiber of my being that we must meet this moment with our hearts. And I mean, I mean, I can predict, but the value of it to me becomes less and less tangible because it is how we meet this moment that co-creates the moment. And so I'm more interested in looking at the energy and the reality and our coping tools and our challenges, because that's how we meet the moment as opposed to deciding what the moment's going to be or what it's going to turn into. And that said, astrology can do that. And it's a real boner. I'll tell you what. Like, you don't want astrology to do that this year or next year or the next year, honestly. And with any predictive tool, I think it's just essential for me to say that the interpreters, so whether it's like economists or astrologers or whatever, we get it wrong. Of course, we do. We’re people. And that is partially because people get things wrong, but also because collected conditions are comprised of the collective. And we are a force. We are this massive force and we can change things. I mean, I can't change things. Maybe you can't change things, but we can change things. And so when we use astrology to navigate that, like our potential to come together and co-create conditions, I think we're using astrology more efficiently and effectively than by like being like, well, let me tell you what's going to happen in March, which, by the way, oh my God, March. But like, you know, it's still so like it's not it's not as helpful. And not to over-answer the question, but I'll say because I've been consulting one-on-one with clients for whatever, like 30 years, and I didn't start doing political predictions or collective predictions. I started doing one-on-one stuff. It's given me and when I said, say, sorry, it's like for 25 years, that's all I did. It's given me a real understanding of the human condition and how we tend to respond to fear and insecurity and power and cultishness. And I think that's really important to again this moment, because there's something that happens when one person starts freaking like one person in the audience started like panicking about something we would all start to be like, shit, should we worry like what's going on like we all are connected to each other. And so, again, the more that we work on our own coping mechanisms, the more that we build ourselves up and build together with each other for each other. The better this goes, and we really want it to go as well as possible. Right. You know?

Sonya: Yeah, so great. Well, the whole talk title is like the times we're in right and sort of astrology for the times that we're in so I guess let's go there and you know not the astrology but you as an astrologer. What are you thinking or saying is happening sort of in these times.

Jessica: Okay, so this is like the question that of course I know we're going to talk about and I'm like, let's talk about something else. It’s terrible. Like did I tell you? I was given the senior discount. I. The astrology of these times are revolutionary, demoralizing, inspiring, transformational. The things. So there's like so many ways I can answer this right but there's this moment. We are in March. Well, March 11. And no, that's a lie 13th. Retrogrades, retrogrades, retrogrades. Okay, so we're March 13. So, this month, we have eclipses, we have retrogrades. And we have Pluto having just crossed from two to three degrees of Aquarius, and this is an important shift. We have at the very end of this month of March of 2025 Neptune moving into Aries. Now the last time Neptune was in Aries was 165 years ago, nothing much was happening in history. That’s sarcasm, there was a lot. And as Pluto moves into three degrees of a fixed sign, we. It starts to trigger the charts of many, many, many nations. And the geopolitical implications of these two important shifts have me concerned, what it means is really obvious if you consume news like if you are paying attention to world news, not just American news. Then you will see the shift, the like seismic shifts that are occurring. And the thing about astrology that's so important is that it's patterns, right, it's like every 250 years, Pluto is in three degrees of Aquarius. And if we go back 250 divided by two is? Virgos, please.

Sonya: 125. 

Jessica: Okay, 125. You said, okay, just make sure I heard it right. So 125 years ago was the last time that Pluto was at the same degrees of its opposing someone right another fixed sign. And some really major things were happening in history, then. What I have developed this theory to see is that when Pluto hits the early degrees of a fixed sign there are massive geopolitical shifts, and what they speak to is people with power, seizing on power with both fists and trying to kind of compile it for themselves, but only on the backs and necks of others. And the collective in our fear of having our backs and necks trampled have historically reacted and are really, you know, not some great ways and some not so great ways. And here we are, we are in a period where we have the opportunity to make a decision about how we're going to show up for each other and ourselves in our most challenging emotions which are fear, terror, resentment, rage. Pluto governs the shadow shit side of humanity. And it also governs our capacity for healing and transformation and Pluto in Aquarius is a really particularly interesting transit for lots of reasons, but in this moment where AI is rising and technology is moving so much faster than humanity can keep up with, right? My concerns about the surveillance state and what it means to us and how we start, you know, as I say, obeying in advance and complying in advance is very real. And some of that is life and some of that is our maladjusted coping mechanisms. And so when I think about the astrology of this moment, and I think about Pluto, which I think about all the time that I'm not thinking about the senior discount. I like that's the only time I stop thinking about Pluto. I, it's a joke, but it's also completely true. I, I really just come back to this drive to talk about our emotions and talk about how we're, how we're coping. Like I am guessing that every single person in here is scared and is overwhelmed and is mad. And that’s human, but how are we coping with those emotions? How are we processing those motions? How are we sharing those emotions? Because what is that? Brene Brown says shame grows in the dark, right? It's like the, the Plutonian emotion is meant to be shared. And Pluto in Aquarius means with the collective. So, you know, this coming together is, is, it's a big part of it, you know, and there's lots of ways of coming together and they include hermits and, you know, introverts, you know, I just want to speak to my people because I am also one and, and, and also at the same time, this Neptune moving into Aries. There's a lot to say, but on a personal level, what's so important is that it is going to, it's gonna make things move really fast. I know it feels like things have been moving fast. By the end of this month, things are going to start to move a whole new kind of fast. And then in July, when Uranus moves into air sign Gemini, it's just going to be, that was not the best sound, but you get it. It's not going to be, it's going to move fast and, and Neptune in Aries is so much about embodied boundaries. Or what it feels like in your body when you don't have any boundaries. And Aries energies are so much associated with anger and competition and and fighting and the body like it literally is like the body. It's like your red blood cells kind of thing. And Neptune is like up in the sky. When over the last several years that Neptune has been in Pisces, we've seen the rise of social media and doom scrolling and the parasocial relationship, the rise of cults, including MAGA. And Neptune in Pisces is a very, it's a transit where it's easy to lose yourself. Neptune in Aries very quickly demands that you grab a hold of yourself. And this transit comes into effect, I think the 30th or the 31st of the month, it's like very soon. And I'm guessing that a lot of folks in here can feel that things are shifting, and it's like, how do you have boundaries, how do you hold yourself together. It's, it's not just about you. It's about you in the context of the collective. And there's just a lot of collective energy that is all over the place. And then come July, when Uranus moves into Gemini. The thing that is exciting but also is that it's, it can be a moment where like a spark is lit, and we have people in the streets, engaging in protest and, and we're real rebellion. But the thing about rebellion that the internet will often forget is that rebellion and revolution doesn't mean yours. It doesn't mean yours, it just means revolution, it just means rebellion. And so, this is where people led movements become the most important thing. And I know I'm not strictly talking astrology but when we strictly talk astrology we lose the point I fear you know, because this is the beginning of a massive shift, it's not the middle, it's not the end of a shift, it's the beginning of shift, and it will require our real collective engagement and that means we have to tolerate each other. We just like, you get it? Yeah, it's just like, it's so hard to have relationships and to be in community with people you disagree with, that you used to date that are, you know, just like annoying or whatever. It's, people are hard, and that's because we have a hard time with people, not because people are hard, other people are hard, but it's really about our individual coping mechanisms. It's, if you have a tendency to overdo it and work yourself really hard and pick up everything and then somebody isn't doing that, you can resent them. Because how come they're not doing everything and I am, instead of being like oh shit I need boundaries. Look that person has boundaries, they're not doing things they don’t want to do. You know, there's a, there are different ways of holding our relationship to people and our feelings about people. And it's hard and it takes a lifetime and this period demands, doesn't ask, it demands that we tolerate imperfection and then we tolerate the feelings that come up. And I don't know, I mean like I, that is fucking hard, right? It's just hard, but that's the moment. And I forget your question.

Sonya: It’s okay, it doesn't matter. 

Jessica: Okay, okay, I got it. Okay, good. Okay, that feels like the thing. Ok great.

Sonya: It's always good when the question doesn't matter anymore. I just want to pick up on that because I think that I'm sure many people have had a lot of conversations when, you know, the Left sort of lost and everyone's licking their wounds and feeling like what did we do, what did we do wrong, how did this happen? And one thing that, you know, in my conversations, I think what you said about us learning how to radically disagree with each other without abandoning ourselves, each other, and our values is really huge, and we haven't actually learned how to do that on the Left. We tend to throw each other under the bus. We tend to be like, well, you know, you harmed me, now you're out. And I had a friend who said this, her name is Danielle, she said this really amazing thing. She said the Left does membership while the Right does belonging. So we are transactional. You're in or you're out, you pay to play. But the Right, you can like rape somebody and you still belong, right? So why do we have such a hard time with belonging with each other? Why do we have a hard time belonging to each other? Why do we have a hard time actually like seeing how we can be in community with each other, you know, partly, you know, for me, I think as an immigrant, the culture of individualism here is so deep and it's so embedded and the fabric of like, even how we talk to each other, don't talk to each other, like how we walk to the bus so we don't walk. Like everything we do, how we check our food out at the grocery store. So, I don't know, I'm now I'm just kind of going off on.

Jessica: No, no, no.

Sonya: But I think, you know, I want to, I want to ask you later about sort of how we cope with all of our feelings. But I think before that, since we were kind of going there, is like, how do we become a community? How do we become a community?

Jessica: That’s a great question. Okay, I have something, I have something for that. 

Sonya: Yay.

Jessica: Because you're right, this thing of like the belonging thing right. It's so much of it is because we don't belong to ourselves, and there's something that the Right does really well that we can't replicate and we shouldn't, which is everyone fall in line, there's one way to be bad or good, choose. Okay, that's true. You know, you're right or you're wrong. Even how that's it. And we are all about nuance. So what we do is we start to unlearn. We start to unlearn. And then we have all these emotions come up around the morning but we can't show anyone that we have the emotions because we don't want to be fucked up. I'm not fucked up. And so, I'm not going to process my emotions because I'm just going to keep on learning and using the language and using the language and using the language. And so this is where progressivism, intellectualism, astrology all fail. Because they are so much about like I'm proving that I get it. And I'm making sure that you get it. And so there's no space for me to be in my grief about how much I didn't get it. There's no space for me to say to myself, you know what, I understand that this, these thoughts are ableist, and I don't know how to not have them. I'm still having them and I know that they're ableist and I know that they're fucked up and I'm still having these thoughts. And I feel defensive. And if I don't have space for that in myself I'm sure I'm not going to let you do it. The amount of messages I get from people telling me the things that I'm saying we're doing wrong. Even though they're not like actually saying like you're wrong they're saying you do all these things right but I wanted you to know that this one's wrong. This one's wrong. And that's like classic progressivism it's like, just so you know I can call you out and I am paying such attention and I'm trying so hard that I can prove it to you by pointing out the problem. And there's a value in it. I'm not going to say it's all wrong. But it's, it's like it's when we do that we're telling on ourselves. It's that we're not emotionally processing. And to emotionally process a completely fucked up world and our complacency and our participation in it means you have to have humility, and you have to grieve. I mean there's no, there's no way through it other than through it. And what we try to do is you try to build like bridges and buildings over it to be like it was never here I was never fucked up in this way. And that's just not right. And so, when we see somebody in our community, behaving in a way that we understand is wrong. And it's triggering. And this is the thing and this is the thing and this is the thing and this is the thing. When you are triggered, no matter how wrong the person's behavior is your trigger is about you. If you think that Geminis are jerks, that's because of something in your chart. It's not because of Geminis. I'm sorry. I've had people get so mad at me about this statement. They're like okay but Libras that's not true. It's like no bitch it's really like there's, there's no fine. That means what you think it means exclusively. It's what it means to you. And we're telling on ourselves all the damn time by allowing our activation to drive us instead of saying oh wow okay I'm really activated by this. What is this in me? And this is where community becomes so hard because I can think of someone that I'm in community with that like, I just feel like they don't like me. I just want them to like me. I'm just like what do I do, what do I do to make them like me. And instead of just being like oh okay so I'm being activated in this way and it's bringing up these thoughts and these feelings in me. And what does that say about me, instead of trying to manage other people. And nobody's good at this. Nobody's good at it. 

Sonya: Yeah. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Sonya: I appreciate all that you're saying and I think I would just add, you know, because I think it really starts like you said at home it's like a friend who always said I'm sure you've heard this when you were pointing the finger at someone there's three, there's three fingers pointing back at yourself, right? So there's that piece about just like when I think about oh why isn't that person doing this or why aren't we a community it's like what, like what, how do I develop like a lot of a lot of tolerance even or a lot of a lot of like discomfort with even not understanding somebody or not agreeing with them or like forgiveness for what I don't know or what I do understand or don't or what I don't think the other person understands, as opposed to this kind of attack mentality right so I think like taking a deep breath and having a really like like really like coming, you know, taking many step backs and many breaths about how do we want to be with each other. And how do we want to be in community is like, like, almost this opportunity that we have. And I guess, you know, since we don't want to depart too much from astrology or astrologer with our resident astrologers sort of how would you say is, what's a way for people to really utilize the tool of astrology to work with their emotions to work with all the feelings that are coming. Trauma triggers belonging like just like, you know, the healthy, cool way to kind of use it because I think sometimes. I'm just going to say this one thing is that, well, I'm from the East Coast, and I moved to the West Coast. And I love astrology I'm like totally into it, but I sometimes have my East Coast friends are like what's up with all the West Coasters. And I'm like, I can’t even talk to this person without being like x, y, and z, da-da-da-da-da  and I can’t do this and this doesn’t happen. And I’m like I don't know, you know, like it's cool with me, but I think, you know, I feel like sometimes people are using it to sort of explain their whole lives. And so yeah, what’s a really like healthy way to use it with ourselves and our emotions. 

Jessica: So, first of all, I agree, of course, people overuse it. And generally when people are doing that, it's because they're excited and want structure, like some kind of structure of like this is why I feel bananas, Venus and Mercury are retrograde. True story.  You know, it's gonna make you feel bananas. But in terms of like answering your question, there's like so many ways I could answer this but here's the two that I'm going to focus on. Three. Okay. The first is the moon. Look at where your moon is in your birth chart, the zodiac sign, the house, and the aspects to it. That describes how you process information. The moon and Mercury are really different Mercury is your mind. Mercury is you listen to the podcast you understood the data you shared with your friends you had an insight you wrote about it in your journal. The moon is, it's your gut. It's you digest data, you, you gestate information, you feel it out. And the way I often describe emotions. Is there like a corgi with a cone on its head. They're so cute and they're so low to the ground but have you seen one with a cone on its head is ridiculous it's like cannot navigate the world. That's emotions. That's for me the moon. I'm obviously been in Capcom so like I'm not. Yeah. Anyways, all to say, when we are in the state of our feelings. We cannot navigate the world with clarity per se because the feelings are internal. So you're not supposed to be pointed outward that's Mercury. And even in our culture we say like mental and emotional health will smush them together. And I'm fucking saying that they overlap, but they're not the same so being able to stay present with the feelings is slow work. It doesn't look like work to anyone else. It means being able to sit with what you don't know. And what you don’t know what to do with. And it's hard, and it's hard, especially in the context of all this like progressive proving thing that we've been talking about. So looking at how your moon functions can empower you to have a better understanding of yourself and to work with yourself, but here's the fucking thing. If you go out and you put into Google moon in X. No, Jessica's mad. So if you're gonna. I don't know why I said it that way but I meant it. I meant it. So if you're going to like be googling your birth chart, or like looking on a fucking app, and I said it like that for a reason. Here's the thing. Use your common sense, like, find at least three authors’ takes on a placement. If you look at an article or an app and it is not attributing the expert who wrote the content, don't fucking listen to it. Okay, like come on, you know what I mean like that's not good. It means it's probably AI or people are being told what to make. So don't give your power away without more common sense. Very important. Get a book, you know, books are okay. So okay so there's that the moon. Then the other two things. I'm going to talk about Neptune and Pluto, because it's what's activated in the world. Neptune in the birth chart, it really throws people off because it's an outer planet. There's certain kinds of astrologers many of them have like big platforms, who don't fuck with the outer planets, and so there's like less information out there about them. Neptune is such an important planet to understand your birth chart because it speaks to your boundaries, or your boundarylessness. If you were raised in an environment where you were not allowed to have boundaries. If you were raised in an environment where the adults around you were chaotic and anxious. They were not like in the material world in a safe way and it could be through fault of their own or no fault of their own. It’s not about blame it's just about context right, then it can teach you that you're not allowed to have boundaries, or that if you do you're just like, I don't know what I'm damn doing. And so, having boundaries is related to anxiety. Astrology is amazing. And it teaches us that there's different kinds of anxiety. Saturn is depression it's like oh my god, it's Eeyore it's Eeyore it's just like heavy everything's down. Uranus is anxiety but it's like Tigger’s anxiety. It's like nervous tension jumping all over the place. Neptune is that little Piglet. Right. What's its name Piglet? Is that its name? Okay, I don't know why I'm using this as a metaphor I'm just that's what it's happening. I don't know. That’s just what came out of my mouth. But it's just like, very like tender very jumpy very like not sure what's what. And so when we are going through collective conditions, which are like humanitarianism and like universal love that's Neptune. But also coats, giving away all your power to somebody who says, hey, the problems really simple hate them. If you hate them. Everything's gonna be fine for you. Don't worry about you being deported, you're not going to be before that they're back, they'll be deported that's fucking Neptune shit. Every American leader who has been like really like right wing and religious and intensive have had a very strong Neptune component to their birth chart because they're driven by spiritual fervor belief empowers us to perpetrate genocide, right, do terrible things, but on a more personal individual level, Neptune. Is that part of you that's like, I don't know where I begin and end so I don't know how to contain myself so so I don't feel in control and if I'm not in control that I'm constantly reacting. And if I'm constantly reacting then nothing's my fault exactly. And this, this cycle and create a lot of really complicated problems in our individual lives so looking at the placement of Neptune. Looking at the zodiac sign it's in the house it's in, and your natal aspects, especially, especially the personal planets, what's everything in your chart that I'll show you a lot about your relationship to like what you put on a pedestal or who you put on a pedestal, how you allow yourself to have boundaries or not. And this is off topic of our larger topic but it also, depending on where it falls in your chart, tells you about whether or not you have safer sex. Whether or not you say no to people in general. Neptune’s really a good planet to understand what it means inside of you. And then a final thing that I'll say in answer to your question is Pluto. Pluto is the parts of you that you fear are bad. It's the parts of you that have experienced trauma, or the fear that you have perpetrated trauma against others. If you're sitting around like, being like is it gonna be fucking World War Three is there actually gonna be World War Three, is this motherfucker really going to round up everybody like is, are we all losing our rights like that the terror that comes from confronting those very scary questions, which we have to confront those questions. The terror that comes up has a series of coping mechanisms associated with it, like, like veins you know coming out of your varicose veins I don't know why, but okay, you see what I'm saying it's like a mess, it's a mess. And they're all connected to each other but each vein feels uniquely difficult to deal with. Pluto requires that we deal with our fight, flight, or fawn coping mechanisms. It requires that we give ourselves the space to have feelings and then have a relationship enough to our center to be able to say okay. And now what do I need? And sometimes the answer is, I don't know. And it's okay to say to yourself, I don't know what I need. Okay. What can I make sure that I'm doing that's at least not harming myself further? That's the best you can do some days, do that. When it comes to Pluto. It's our greatest resource, and our greatest weakness. And so figuring out where Pluto falls in the birth chart is so powerful because it shows you what's hard for you, and it shows you how you can cope. It shows you what you're kind of called to do you know people are frequently asking me like, you know, I want to be part of the revolution I want to be part of the solution to things what where in my chart doesn't say what to do. And your chart doesn't say that. It's about what you can sustain. It's recognizing what's important to you what your resources are and what you can sustain without spinning yourself out so much that you lose yourself or you start harming other people, which anyone who's been in community or any kind of like organizing work knows that there's, there's often people there just like fighting demons, and those demons become your colleagues and your peers, sometimes. Yeah.

Sonya: Yeah. I was like had such a random question about this watermelon that you're holding in the midst of all this seriousness like, yeah. 

Jessica: It's a statement piece. And it's also. 

Sonya: A fan. 

Jessica: It's also a fan.

Sonya: It's also a statement piece. 

Jessica: It does both. It does. Hopefully we all are very clear about its statement, right? Free Palestine. 

Sonya: So great. 

Jessica: Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, very. Very snappy.

Sonya: So, that was just as I digress. I had a question. So there are a couple things that you said that I think are super important, and you don't want to gloss over them. When you were first talking about, like the time that we're in. You were like, oh my god, March, and then it's gonna rapidly exponentially get worse. Is what I heard. Yeah. And what I also did. No, no, no. Yeah, I mean, it's real. And I think the reality is like, we have to talk about the thing and we have to talk about what's bad so that we can prepare for what's bad, you know, and what's happening and I think sometimes we are afraid to do that. Because we don't want to talk about it because it's, I think we also have like some of that cognitive dissonance like if it's just over there that I don't have to deal with it and whatever. So I heard you say that sort of it's gonna get worse. It's gonna get bad. It's gonna go faster. I also heard you say and then there's like this space. There's this kind of opening of like revolution revolt, but it doesn't mean anything without if it has no center or gravity. And I wanted to say that I wanted to sort of. You also said something in the beginning when I've heard some other astrologers say this too is, you know, this kind of moment where there's both this like capacity for incredible like activism and social like, like mobility like like really deep change like it's incredible. And there's also like catastrophe right on the flip side of that. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about like those things as well as sort of that relationship between like the capacity for revolution for revolt for social justice for like the real train that to do something real, and then the kind of right on the edge sitting with the catastrophe. Hopefully making some sense. 

Jessica: It's a great question and it's like one that I both like. I have a harder time talking about being like open public because I'm, I don't want to fuck anyone up in the brain, and I don't know. Nobody knows. But the astrology that that is been mounting but really kicks in this month is, unfortunately, is can be just very very complexual. It's, it looks like many nations are going to be triggered into major power struggles and ideological ideologically driven power struggles. When it comes to nations power struggles this can be war can be trade war we already are seeing major trade wars from the US to other nations, and I think a lot of times maybe Americans aren’t as aware that that is like it can be major step towards other kinds of conflict. Things are bad and they're not going to magically get better. And what we cannot do is change the people in power, you know, that's not one of our options. But there are more of us than them. And if the second we forget that, like any part of your day where you forget that, bring it back, there are more of us than them, and we need to start acting like it and sometimes we do. And a lot of times we don't. And so, I'm not positive I'm answering this part of your question because I'm hedging at it a little to be honest. I am worried that that we have our stepping that we've stepped into a period of global destabilization and conflict. And within that, Uranus, this July moves into Gemini. And so, in terms of organizing that one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is, we need progressive tools like there was in the protests in Hong Kong a number of years ago protesters were using an app called Bridgify, which was actually created by a teacher local to the Bay Area. And it connected through Bluetooth. And so it allowed them even though the government turned off the internet, they were using Bluetooth device to communicate with each other organizing that way. It's like a decentralized way of communicating. And that has like captured my imagination, ever since because we need technology that is outside of being surveilled because how can we organize in a surveillance state through the technology that we are being surveilled through. Like if you go to a protest or something important happens, and you're taking pictures of you and your friends or the important thing that you're a part of. You are narking on everyone in the picture. And it's like how do we, we've been doing it for like over a decade just narking on ourselves and other people. It's really scary. And I mean I laugh but it is not funny it is actually very serious and, and how do we make this change, I don't know, but there's for sure people who do there are tech nerds of progressive values and they need to we need to build tools together for each other. And a number of years ago I like chatted on Twitter, because fuck X. I don’t fuck with X. But Twitter. I chatted on Twitter with the creator of Bridgify. Cause I was like oh this is such a great happen he's like I can't get any VC funding because none of the VCs want to back this. And it's like, because it's a tool for the people was like that's all it is is a tool for people and we need more of those and again it sounds like I'm not talking about astrology but I am talking about the astrology because when we build tools for each other, and we really are are able to like hit the ground running that the potential for progress, progressive action and impact is stronger because, again, I don't exactly know what it's going to look like, you know. But things are moving very fast in the world and moving very fast in this country. And more and more people are going to be engaged and acting up and more and more people are going to be terrified and hiding and complying in advance. Both of those things are true. And so, again, I will always bring conversation back to developing and cultivating and nurturing your tools for tolerating the fears and the feelings. It is so important because this is a marathon this is like turtle turtle turtle not hare. You know, so, did I answer those questions. 

Sonya: Yeah, I mean I think something I'm also hearing you say is, it's almost like, what's the best version of ourselves. And that even when we're looking at our sort of personal astrology is sort of like how do I step into the best version myself to sort of, if we all were actually stepping into the best version of ourselves. What would it look like what would we develop and how would we develop it together?

Jessica: And let me add something to that because it is a lunar eclipse in Virgo. And so perfectionism is your enemy. Perfectionism inherently white supremacist and fucking problematic, and it will keep you from trying. It will keep you from trying. And when we are willing to say, you know what, I didn’t say that right. I made, that was my mistake. And not beat yourself up and not like guilt trip yourself. And be like okay I'm going to make amends I'm going to like, try better I'm going to try to fuck up less or in a new way next time. You know, that's my thing is. I keep on trying to like make new mistakes. That's the move, because we cannot be perfect, and we cannot require others to be perfect in order for them to be worthy of our of our community building or our advocacy or our love. And also, listen, you can be like, I don't fuck with that person. That person sucks. I don't like that person, and I can love their soul. I can love them on on like a spiritual level and have boundaries bound lots of boundaries, you know, so. This is, this is again where like, I just think that the ritual again because I'm coming back to the Virgo lunar eclipse, the ritual of how you engage with yourself in response to relationships with others boundaries, how you emotionally process and digest. That's the damn move right that's that's really the move, and it is the hardest thing. It is the hardest thing. There's so many things that you've done and will do, and the emotional part in many ways is the hardest part. It really is. 

Sonya: Yeah, something about what you're saying reminds me of, you know, Joanna Macy who's like the big elder here right she has such a beautiful way and the whole field of eco psychology of like creating a relationship with your fear your paralysis your denial your magical thinking about environmental collapse right and like if we can get through those like like have a relationship with denial have a relationship with fear and paralysis. Like what is that thing that we actually can be doing and I really appreciate that sense of not letting perfectionism stop you from actually doing the thing.

Jessica: And I should tell you those words denial. What were the other two you used?

Sonya: Magical thinking, I said, what did I say fear. 

Jessica: Those are all Neptune words.

Sonya: Paralysis paralysis. Yeah, the nummy. 

Jessica: Yeah, all neptune words. Yeah. And so it's it's really just like, it's the thing that's so amazing about astrology is like, they govern different planets govern different words. And so we start to understand that this is really anxiety. It's when you can when when a person cannot accept. We say, I was just so fucked up I can't believe he said that again I can't believe he's saying these crazy shit online I can't believe he's heiled Hitler in public again with the fuck. Like when you don't accept it, you spin your wheels and you lose your energy and acceptance, you probably heard me say more is not consent. It's simply awareness acceptance is simply awareness and we struggle to accept what we can't process. And so being able to sit with like okay I can't process this and I'm also going to practice accepting it is a skill that will really serve you well over the next few years. Yeah. 

Sonya: I think also as a person who comes from a place of actually trying to do a lot of stuff. One thing that is maybe a pet peeve of mine is how hard it is sometimes for people to actually take the first step to actually acting on something there's a lot of talking about it there's a lot of fear about it there's a lot of talking yourself out of it there's a lot of criticizing other people for doing things. So it's like what is the step to actually move into action, and not just talk, and that's a really really big piece of like moving into this, like what is what is this social place where there could be some sort of social. Good. Revolt that happens.

Jessica: The thing that’s so important because this is what I believe, I believe we need to all be more willing to fail. Because if you're not willing to take the first step. That means you're not willing to fail and failing is awful failing and public failing and community is embarrassing and it's awful and it feels bad. And people talk shit behind your back and all of those things, and it's still better than not evolving. Yeah. 

Sonya: And also to not always. One thing I've said is like you have to get used to not being liked. If you're going to act people aren't going to like you. If you take risks, people are going to be mad at you, but it's better than not, you know, it's better than not so I have maybe one more question actually had two really quick questions so one is just, I'm like, kind of dying to know what you think of AI. And how that relates to this, all the things. And then I just also I'll just ask both the questions is sort of kind of more bringing it back like personally, I guess it's sort of like how did you get into this and like how do you keep yourself, yourself like just sort of kind of safe and grounded, you know, as you're doing this work out here. 

Jessica: Okay, AI.

Sonya: AI and then you. 

Jessica: Fucking AI, man. Okay, I think I think any AI is inevitable. I accept. It is real, it is here it is. All the Darth Vader's are super into AI. You know what I mean like it's just like that just says too much about AI. And I think it's an environmental catastrophe just like waiting to happen. Fucking AI, but also, it is here, and I think it's going to develop so quickly that I you know most people still aren't really aware of AI and what it is and how integrated into. I mean a Google result now brings you an AI response whether or not we want it pisses me off. But I think it's going to be a big part of war. I'm sorry, but I do. And, and it's, and I'm scared of it. And then to your other question. In my personal life for myself. I don't overly fuck with astrology. Okay. I like set it and forget it. What I'm the center of my personal work is trying to come back to the moment. It's just kind of greet and greet them our moment. I don't want to shock anyone but I'm fucking nuts like I have a lot of big emotions. I got a lot of thoughts, and I did see COVID coming. And it was a terrible terrible terrible thing for me as an individual, seeing, seeing a train coming at millions of people didn't make the impact lighter for me like you know. So prediction. I really learned firsthand in that experience, how fucking terrible it is and so I've been very tender with looking forward. Because it's like I just glance and I'm like, oh god no. And so I just keep on trying to come back to the moment and coming back to how I can resource myself how we can resource ourselves, how I can step out of how I can. This is really like, how can walk my talk, you know, this is really what we've been talking about the whole time like, how can I be willing to be uncomfortable with people and fail and and try and risk getting it wrong and all the things, it's. How can I tolerate like I’m sleeping well is anyone raise your hand if you're sleeping well. I mean, okay. Okay, there's one, one hand went down one went kind of up, you know, I feel like everyone is struggling, it's, it's, it's hard and so I'm trying to for myself. I'm trying to get grounded. I'm fucking with trees a lot. Because they are just their roots like so much of what is really the magic of a tree is actually under the ground. And so I keep on trying to be like okay under the ground, the growth is under the ground. And the stability of the tree is actually dependent on the roots, so I keep on trying to attend to my roots, and then kind of share that out, outward. So that’s.

Sonya: That's kind of a nice image to get to sort of sit with, you know, in the midst of the train wreck in the madness. Yeah, thank you so much. I just want to say I found all the things that you have such a, like a warmth. You have such a beautiful way of connecting with folks, an incredible way of explaining things, making them accessible. And yeah, just like I was like enraptured, you know, so thank you for just being able to, you know, give, give yourself and give your time that's not a small ask. Thank you for being here.

Jessica: Thank you. That’s very sweet. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team also includes Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, and Pele Shalev. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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